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EVs reduce tailpipe exhaust near roads but it's worth noting that brake abrasion dust isn't going away anytime soon and it's considered very bad to breathe, pos

EVs reduce tailpipe exhaust near roads but it's worth noting that brake abrasion dust isn't going away anytime soon and it's considered very bad to breathe, possibly in the same league as diesel emission particles.[1] I guess regenerative braking on an EV reduces this somewhat. Tire dust is also concerning.[2] [1] https://academic.oup.com/metallomics/article/12/3/371/5956240 https://academic.oup.com/metallomics/article/12/3/371/595624... [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22642836/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22642836/

Thlom 5y ago
One of the problems with EV’s is that the brake discs are rusting because they almost never gets used.
- Qwertious 5y ago
  "problems"
  - garmaine 5y ago
    Yes, problem. Because the end it sheds more particulate matter when it is used. So the savings might not be as high as imagined.
  - thrwaeasddsaf 5y ago
    It's a real problem. Your brakes can get totally stuck (been there), also you can fail the car's inspection with rusty brakes.
- scotty79 5y ago
  I don't think that really happens because breaks are used every time you stop. You can't regeratively break to 0.
  - thrwaeasddsaf 5y ago
    Depends on how much your drive. Drive only now and then and brake only the bare minimum, you can get really rusty brakes. I ended up having to get towed with brakes being seized due to rust and lack of use.
    - scotty79 5y ago
      I didn't notice any more rusting with a hybrid with regerative breaking than I did with normal car. Rusting is for me more associated with the weather and lack of use of the whole car than with how much do you use breaks when you use the car.
      - thrwaeasddsaf 5y ago
        Well yes, weather will cause rust. Good use of brakes can clean it up and keep the mechanism from seizing. Lack of braking = lack of use as far as the brakes are concerned. I could run my errands without braking at all (except when stopping at a parking lot). Anticipate lights and traffic flow, downshift to slow down.. that's how I used to drive. At home I could even park without braking to slow down, thanks to a small incline at my parking spot. My previous car, which had automatic transmission, didn't have really show any issues with rust because I actually had to brake when driving around town. Same weather, same locale.
heipei 5y ago
Anecdotal, but since recently getting a plug-in hybrid I've only been using regenerative braking except for the most abrupt stops. Whenever you approach a red light or junction it's not hard to stay within the regen braking zone.
- sixstringtheory 5y ago
  I’ve always made it a game to see how little I can use my brakes, whether in bumper-to-bumper traffic or more wide open suburban roads. I never understand why people need to race up to red lights just to do a hard brake. I take solace thinking they probably replace their brakes 20% more frequently.
  - thrwaeasddsaf 5y ago
    I did that too and my brakes rusted from lack of use. Ended up having to get towed for an expensive repair..
    - aetherspawn 5y ago
      Yes, I have owned a Prius and Corolla Hybrid and on both vehicles the front rotors always go very rusty because I only ever press the brake down enough to activate the regenerative braking (for better fuel economy). The regenerative braking power of these vehicles is about 20-30kW. And as a side effect, I haven't needed to replace the brake pads for about 150,000 kms on the Prius. Actually the mechanic told me that they look brand new. I haven't experienced any problems from the rust yet. The front rotor on the Corolla (2020) seems to be a much better, newer design, and doesn't rust nearly as much as the Prius (2014). endnote. For anyone considering the new Corolla Hybrid ... I rate it very highly as perhaps the best car ever designed.
    - sixstringtheory 5y ago
      That’s a bummer to hear, and I saw other folks mentioning that on this thread too. Could you describe the climate in which you’re located? Maybe a humid, salty coastal climate will affect that differently than a dry, dusty climate.
modeless 5y ago
EVs drastically reduce brake dust.
- lm28469 5y ago
  Probably not in the city, regenerative breaking doesn't fit most scenarios, especially seeing how people tend to drive high torque vehicles.
  - modeless 5y ago
    Most definitely in the city. Regen handles the vast majority of braking for me. Depends on how strong the regen is in your vehicle I guess, but it's definitely possible to make it strong enough.
  - neuronic 5y ago
    What? I am driving EVs multiple times a week in a European city and regenerative breaking is always happening at every brake action until mechanical brakes kick in. That must reduce appliance of mechanical brakes at least by half. You can turn regen braking off, but why would you unless maybe the EV model feels like shit when switching between regenerative and mechanical brakes.
  - fy20 5y ago
    I drive a 12yo hybrid and my annecdotal experience suggests that isn't correct. I drive mainly around the city and had to replace brake pads recently as they became rusty (salt during winter). The pads had been on for 80,000km and were less than half worn. On regular ICE cars (which have bigger brake pads) you'd usually have to replace them well before that point as they'd be worn down. I'd imagine they last even longer on newer hybrid and EVs.
jansan 5y ago
Brake dust is a bad example for EVs that make use of recuperation. But tire abrasion is arguably worse for EVs due to the higher initial torque. Does anybody know if there is any difference between EVs and ICEs?
jillesvangurp 5y ago
Most EVs indeed use regenerative braking. Which means your brake pads last a lot longer as you barely use them. Tire particles are a bigger problem. Just think of the mass of tires that you erode away before you replace them (routinely) and compare that to the brake pads you replace much less often. And it's not just the tires that erode but also the road. Asphalt particles are nasty as well. Though most of that dust is quite coarse and doesn't stay in the air as long. But then, tire and road dust is apparently the biggest source of microplastics in our oceans. It washes away, enters our sewers, rivers, and eventually the oceans. It's bad for different reasons as well.
- airhead969 5y ago
  EVs might as well be replaced with rail cars. In which case, it would be better to have local and national trams rather than single-occupant vehicles. It also would be cheaper to have carbon-captured concrete bicycle and walking paths rather than asphalt highways or roads. Single-occupancy vehicles need to go away.
layoutIfNeeded 5y ago
Actually EVs are much worse than ICEs for tire dust and road abrasion, as they tend to be much heavier than an equivalent ICE car, with much more torque.
wolfretcrap 5y ago
A lot of people don't know how to use engine braking, I guess teaching them that is going to significantly increased your brake pad life on existing vehicles in circulation. Remember there are 3 brakes in your car, handbrake, foot brake and engine braking.
- airhead969 5y ago
  Foot brake and handbrake are effectively the same thing because they operate on shared friction components using mechanical wires instead of hydraulic lines. There maybe a different mechanism but it ultimately uses the same drum or disc. Engine braking (jake braking) by trucks is illegal by statue in many cities and towns because it's very loud. Also, engine braking is riskier in terms of costs (stresses to drivetrain, torque converter, transmission, engine) than brake pads, so people aren't going to do it. Furthermore, they rarely have the skills or transmission to be able to do it conveniently. In addition, if it were more efficient or safer, it would likely be a feature, but I've never seen it in a standard transmission passenger vehicle.
- quietbritishjim 5y ago
  I'm completely not a car mechanic, so the following is essentially a question phrased as a statement. But I'm a bit skeptical about this idea. I assume you mean the engine break in a manual tranmission car (AKA stick shift in the US). But that relies on your clutch, which is still a friction based mechanism. Admittedly if you're breaking you're probably going to change gear either way, but the amount of friction depends on the difference in revs between the two parts coming into contact, which is presumably going to be larger if you're using it to engine break. So it seems to me that you're reducing wear on your brake pad but just switching that to increase wear on your clutch - with similar effects on air quality.
  - Caprinicus 5y ago
    No, it isn’t actually the clutch doing most of the braking, it’s the inherent friction of the engine moving without combustion
  - the_pwner224 5y ago
kiliantics 5y ago
Another reason why we should not be making this big push for EVs but instead try to shift our infrastructure away from personal vehicles and towards mass transit and micromobility. EVs will still make this picture look the same and are thus inherently an inefficient form of transport: https://urbanist.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83454714d69e2017d3c37d8ac970c-800wi https://urbanist.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83454714d69e2017d3c37d8...

Thlom 5y ago

One of the problems with EV’s is that the brake discs are rusting because they almost never gets used.

Qwertious 5y ago
"problems"
- garmaine 5y ago
  Yes, problem. Because the end it sheds more particulate matter when it is used. So the savings might not be as high as imagined.
- thrwaeasddsaf 5y ago
  It's a real problem. Your brakes can get totally stuck (been there), also you can fail the car's inspection with rusty brakes.
scotty79 5y ago
I don't think that really happens because breaks are used every time you stop. You can't regeratively break to 0.
- thrwaeasddsaf 5y ago
  Depends on how much your drive. Drive only now and then and brake only the bare minimum, you can get really rusty brakes. I ended up having to get towed with brakes being seized due to rust and lack of use.
  - scotty79 5y ago
    I didn't notice any more rusting with a hybrid with regerative breaking than I did with normal car. Rusting is for me more associated with the weather and lack of use of the whole car than with how much do you use breaks when you use the car.
    - thrwaeasddsaf 5y ago
      Well yes, weather will cause rust. Good use of brakes can clean it up and keep the mechanism from seizing. Lack of braking = lack of use as far as the brakes are concerned. I could run my errands without braking at all (except when stopping at a parking lot). Anticipate lights and traffic flow, downshift to slow down.. that's how I used to drive. At home I could even park without braking to slow down, thanks to a small incline at my parking spot. My previous car, which had automatic transmission, didn't have really show any issues with rust because I actually had to brake when driving around town. Same weather, same locale.

heipei 5y ago

Anecdotal, but since recently getting a plug-in hybrid I've only been using regenerative braking except for the most abrupt stops. Whenever you approach a red light or junction it's not hard to stay within the regen braking zone.

sixstringtheory 5y ago
I’ve always made it a game to see how little I can use my brakes, whether in bumper-to-bumper traffic or more wide open suburban roads. I never understand why people need to race up to red lights just to do a hard brake. I take solace thinking they probably replace their brakes 20% more frequently.
- thrwaeasddsaf 5y ago
  I did that too and my brakes rusted from lack of use. Ended up having to get towed for an expensive repair..
  - aetherspawn 5y ago
    Yes, I have owned a Prius and Corolla Hybrid and on both vehicles the front rotors always go very rusty because I only ever press the brake down enough to activate the regenerative braking (for better fuel economy). The regenerative braking power of these vehicles is about 20-30kW. And as a side effect, I haven't needed to replace the brake pads for about 150,000 kms on the Prius. Actually the mechanic told me that they look brand new. I haven't experienced any problems from the rust yet. The front rotor on the Corolla (2020) seems to be a much better, newer design, and doesn't rust nearly as much as the Prius (2014). endnote. For anyone considering the new Corolla Hybrid ... I rate it very highly as perhaps the best car ever designed.
  - sixstringtheory 5y ago
    That’s a bummer to hear, and I saw other folks mentioning that on this thread too. Could you describe the climate in which you’re located? Maybe a humid, salty coastal climate will affect that differently than a dry, dusty climate.

modeless 5y ago

EVs drastically reduce brake dust.

lm28469 5y ago
Probably not in the city, regenerative breaking doesn't fit most scenarios, especially seeing how people tend to drive high torque vehicles.
- modeless 5y ago
  Most definitely in the city. Regen handles the vast majority of braking for me. Depends on how strong the regen is in your vehicle I guess, but it's definitely possible to make it strong enough.
- neuronic 5y ago
  What? I am driving EVs multiple times a week in a European city and regenerative breaking is always happening at every brake action until mechanical brakes kick in. That must reduce appliance of mechanical brakes at least by half. You can turn regen braking off, but why would you unless maybe the EV model feels like shit when switching between regenerative and mechanical brakes.
- fy20 5y ago
  I drive a 12yo hybrid and my annecdotal experience suggests that isn't correct. I drive mainly around the city and had to replace brake pads recently as they became rusty (salt during winter). The pads had been on for 80,000km and were less than half worn. On regular ICE cars (which have bigger brake pads) you'd usually have to replace them well before that point as they'd be worn down. I'd imagine they last even longer on newer hybrid and EVs.

jansan 5y ago

Brake dust is a bad example for EVs that make use of recuperation. But tire abrasion is arguably worse for EVs due to the higher initial torque. Does anybody know if there is any difference between EVs and ICEs?

jillesvangurp 5y ago

Most EVs indeed use regenerative braking. Which means your brake pads last a lot longer as you barely use them. Tire particles are a bigger problem. Just think of the mass of tires that you erode away before you replace them (routinely) and compare that to the brake pads you replace much less often. And it's not just the tires that erode but also the road. Asphalt particles are nasty as well. Though most of that dust is quite coarse and doesn't stay in the air as long. But then, tire and road dust is apparently the biggest source of microplastics in our oceans. It washes away, enters our sewers, rivers, and eventually the oceans. It's bad for different reasons as well.

airhead969 5y ago
EVs might as well be replaced with rail cars. In which case, it would be better to have local and national trams rather than single-occupant vehicles. It also would be cheaper to have carbon-captured concrete bicycle and walking paths rather than asphalt highways or roads. Single-occupancy vehicles need to go away.

layoutIfNeeded 5y ago

Actually EVs are much worse than ICEs for tire dust and road abrasion, as they tend to be much heavier than an equivalent ICE car, with much more torque.

wolfretcrap 5y ago

A lot of people don't know how to use engine braking, I guess teaching them that is going to significantly increased your brake pad life on existing vehicles in circulation. Remember there are 3 brakes in your car, handbrake, foot brake and engine braking.

airhead969 5y ago
Foot brake and handbrake are effectively the same thing because they operate on shared friction components using mechanical wires instead of hydraulic lines. There maybe a different mechanism but it ultimately uses the same drum or disc. Engine braking (jake braking) by trucks is illegal by statue in many cities and towns because it's very loud. Also, engine braking is riskier in terms of costs (stresses to drivetrain, torque converter, transmission, engine) than brake pads, so people aren't going to do it. Furthermore, they rarely have the skills or transmission to be able to do it conveniently. In addition, if it were more efficient or safer, it would likely be a feature, but I've never seen it in a standard transmission passenger vehicle.
quietbritishjim 5y ago
I'm completely not a car mechanic, so the following is essentially a question phrased as a statement. But I'm a bit skeptical about this idea. I assume you mean the engine break in a manual tranmission car (AKA stick shift in the US). But that relies on your clutch, which is still a friction based mechanism. Admittedly if you're breaking you're probably going to change gear either way, but the amount of friction depends on the difference in revs between the two parts coming into contact, which is presumably going to be larger if you're using it to engine break. So it seems to me that you're reducing wear on your brake pad but just switching that to increase wear on your clutch - with similar effects on air quality.
- Caprinicus 5y ago
  No, it isn’t actually the clutch doing most of the braking, it’s the inherent friction of the engine moving without combustion
- the_pwner224 5y ago

kiliantics 5y ago

Another reason why we should not be making this big push for EVs but instead try to shift our infrastructure away from personal vehicles and towards mass transit and micromobility. EVs will still make this picture look the same and are thus inherently an inefficient form of transport: https://urbanist.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83454714d69e2017d3c37d8ac970c-800wi https://urbanist.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83454714d69e2017d3c37d8...