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I have mixed feelings on this. Humans modify their environment to benefit themselves. We eliminated the Grizzle Bear from California and I kinda think that is a

I have mixed feelings on this. Humans modify their environment to benefit themselves. We eliminated the Grizzle Bear from California and I kinda think that is appropriate. I do believe predators benefit the ecosystem to a point. Using this same logic, would humans benefit if we had predators hunting us? I bet a lot of the pro-predator rhetoric comes from people living in urban areas with little connection to rural life.

adamcstephens 5y ago
I’m pro-wolves because they are a keystone species that keeps the entire ecosystem in check. I’d happily let predators into my urban area, cause the deer and geese cause their own damage. If some house cats get eaten, that’s not so bad for the native bird population either.
crygin 5y ago
Smaller towns here in the northwest that have developed suburbs over the last decade or two are overrun with deer, because coyotes have been displaced. It's a real problem.
- sliken 5y ago
  Er what? Coyotes don't eat deer.
  - abstract_put 5y ago
    What would keep a coyote from killing deer (particularly young deer)? I'm not sure where abouts you are, in Eastern Ontario coyotes eat deer. A quick search shows multiple sources that support the same dynamic in various places in the US as well.
    - sliken 5y ago
      Heh, ok, I stand corrected. My impression was that was it was mostly wolf and mountain lions that eat deer. I dug around and found a few studies that mentioned that heavy snow let to more coyote deer hunting. Then several other studies that tried to tease out if coyotes cause additive predation (increase in mortality rates) or compensatory predation (killing deer that would die anyways). Found a summary of the related research papers claiming "None of these studies found any evidence that coyote removal caused an increase in the deer population." another two studies found "Removal studies with white-tailed deer populations also show that coyote removal does not affect overall population growth." Seems like the general conclusion is that coyotes have stabilizing effect on deer herds, which seems about right from a healthy ecosystem point of view. Similarly wolves help stabilize various populations, even of distant species like song birds, beavers, trees and other plants. Thanks for the correction.
  - spfzero 5y ago
    They do eat young deer.
    - sliken 5y ago
      Found reports even of adult deer, and even moose. But they did need some advantages. Deer predation was noticeably lower during winters with less snow. Leading factors for moose hunting were things like: * deep crusted snow that the prey couldn't run on top of, but the coyotes could * steep (40-45 degrees) slopes (harder on large animals) * dense tree cover (makes whirl and kicking less effective) * lack of deer
spfzero 5y ago
How was eliminating the Grizzly Bear (Brown Bear) appropriate? It was a matter of removing a competitor, it had nothing to do with human safety. It was done soley to improve the profit margin for ranchers. The Grizzly is on the California state flag, it’s a symbol of the state, and it’s an embarrassment that the legislature of that state looked the other way as it was killed off.

adamcstephens 5y ago

I’m pro-wolves because they are a keystone species that keeps the entire ecosystem in check. I’d happily let predators into my urban area, cause the deer and geese cause their own damage. If some house cats get eaten, that’s not so bad for the native bird population either.

crygin 5y ago

Smaller towns here in the northwest that have developed suburbs over the last decade or two are overrun with deer, because coyotes have been displaced. It's a real problem.

sliken 5y ago
Er what? Coyotes don't eat deer.
- abstract_put 5y ago
  What would keep a coyote from killing deer (particularly young deer)? I'm not sure where abouts you are, in Eastern Ontario coyotes eat deer. A quick search shows multiple sources that support the same dynamic in various places in the US as well.
  - sliken 5y ago
    Heh, ok, I stand corrected. My impression was that was it was mostly wolf and mountain lions that eat deer. I dug around and found a few studies that mentioned that heavy snow let to more coyote deer hunting. Then several other studies that tried to tease out if coyotes cause additive predation (increase in mortality rates) or compensatory predation (killing deer that would die anyways). Found a summary of the related research papers claiming "None of these studies found any evidence that coyote removal caused an increase in the deer population." another two studies found "Removal studies with white-tailed deer populations also show that coyote removal does not affect overall population growth." Seems like the general conclusion is that coyotes have stabilizing effect on deer herds, which seems about right from a healthy ecosystem point of view. Similarly wolves help stabilize various populations, even of distant species like song birds, beavers, trees and other plants. Thanks for the correction.
- spfzero 5y ago
  They do eat young deer.
  - sliken 5y ago
    Found reports even of adult deer, and even moose. But they did need some advantages. Deer predation was noticeably lower during winters with less snow. Leading factors for moose hunting were things like: * deep crusted snow that the prey couldn't run on top of, but the coyotes could * steep (40-45 degrees) slopes (harder on large animals) * dense tree cover (makes whirl and kicking less effective) * lack of deer

spfzero 5y ago

How was eliminating the Grizzly Bear (Brown Bear) appropriate? It was a matter of removing a competitor, it had nothing to do with human safety. It was done soley to improve the profit margin for ranchers. The Grizzly is on the California state flag, it’s a symbol of the state, and it’s an embarrassment that the legislature of that state looked the other way as it was killed off.