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It's not possible to make this a switch the user can turn on or off (with reasonable effort). Take the alternative app store. If they are allowed you will have

It's not possible to make this a switch the user can turn on or off (with reasonable effort). Take the alternative app store. If they are allowed you will have some with exclusive apps. Those apps are then outside the apple rules and you have to have to hit the switch if you want them. So you loose out on the app or on all your apps being apple rule / account / payment compatible. If there is no alternative store you will get all apps the apple way. Apple is providing a real benefit here. Of course they are also leveraging their semi-monoplostic position to "extort" money and to distort competition.

AnthonyMouse 5y ago
> Take the alternative app store. If they are allowed you will have some with exclusive apps. Those apps are then outside the apple rules and you have to have to hit the switch if you want them. So you loose out on the app or on all your apps being apple rule / account / payment compatible. But how is this different than Android? There could be apps exclusive to Android, presumably there are. If you want them you have to choose Android. All the people who only trust Apple can't have them, the same as all the people who would refuse to turn the switch. And even if some of the people who currently have iOS devices would turn the switch, the people who wouldn't are still a huge market. Unless they're not. But in that case what you're really saying is that people don't actually want the Apple-controlled market and most people are only buying iOS devices in spite of rather than because of it.
ninjin 5y ago
> It's not possible to make this a switch the user can turn on or off (with reasonable effort). Frankly, citation needed. If phone manufacturers can find ways to unlock bootloaders, I refuse to believe that there is no way to allow for sideloading of some form on iOS. It particularly disturbs me how this comes from the “Think different” camp which praises the quality of its software to high heaven. Nowhere have I argued that the line should be drawn at “free mixing of application stores”, yet I continue to get the same boilerplate arguments that any move from the current status quo will lead to a complete collapse of the allegedly all so superior iOS ecosystem. I do not buy it.
- Hasnep 5y ago
  > I refuse to believe that there is no way to allow for sideloading of some form on iOS. I don't think GP meant that it wasn't technically possible, they were saying it isn't possible for this switch to exist without some popular apps eventually getting almost everyone to flip the switch and negate the whole point of having a switch. I don't think I agree with them because Android already has this switch and I can't think of many apps that lots of users would want to sideload, except for Fortnite.
  - ninjin 5y ago
    Just to clarify, I do not think that orangeoxidation holds the position that it is technically impossible. I just think that there is no evidence that it is either technically impossible or – like you – that there is any evidence or good reason to believe that sideloading would turn iOS into the wild west. Rather, I think that the argument is sloppy, lazy, and frankly relies on a severe lack of imagination and rigidity of mind from those that present or accept it. Thus we should stop parroting it as it makes for a very boring discussion. Instead, maybe there is an interesting discussion to be had as to whether Google maintains control using Google Play Services? Technical aspects of how a consent mechanisms could work relative to bootloader unlocking? The viability of Apple’s offerings in terms of better privacy and payment UI if something like Fortnite “broke free” and started a competing store? All this sounds endlessly more fun to read and contribute to compared to: “I am content with the status quo, it serves me well, and I see no reason to discuss this further with you freedom zealots!”.
encryptluks2 5y ago
If you lose out on an app because they decide to exclude themselves from the app store, couldn't you just find another app that doesn't exclude themselves that caters more towards your philosophy?
- Gaelan 5y ago
  The top 10 free apps on the App Store, at time of writing, are TikTok, HBO Max, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Messenger, Snapchat, Zoom, Gmail, and Google Maps. Until Gmail, every single one of those provides access to content that can't be accessed thorough another app—a more ethical Snapchat doesn't have any of my Snapchat-using friends, and a more ethical HBO Max doesn't have the movie I want to watch. So no, in practice, the option is to get the app, wherever it's available, or decide to do without whatever it's offering.
  - ccouzens 5y ago
    YouTube, Instagram, Facebook and Google Maps all have good enough experiences using a mobile web browser. You don't need their app to access their content.

AnthonyMouse 5y ago

> Take the alternative app store. If they are allowed you will have some with exclusive apps. Those apps are then outside the apple rules and you have to have to hit the switch if you want them. So you loose out on the app or on all your apps being apple rule / account / payment compatible. But how is this different than Android? There could be apps exclusive to Android, presumably there are. If you want them you have to choose Android. All the people who only trust Apple can't have them, the same as all the people who would refuse to turn the switch. And even if some of the people who currently have iOS devices would turn the switch, the people who wouldn't are still a huge market. Unless they're not. But in that case what you're really saying is that people don't actually want the Apple-controlled market and most people are only buying iOS devices in spite of rather than because of it.

ninjin 5y ago

> It's not possible to make this a switch the user can turn on or off (with reasonable effort). Frankly, citation needed. If phone manufacturers can find ways to unlock bootloaders, I refuse to believe that there is no way to allow for sideloading of some form on iOS. It particularly disturbs me how this comes from the “Think different” camp which praises the quality of its software to high heaven. Nowhere have I argued that the line should be drawn at “free mixing of application stores”, yet I continue to get the same boilerplate arguments that any move from the current status quo will lead to a complete collapse of the allegedly all so superior iOS ecosystem. I do not buy it.

Hasnep 5y ago
> I refuse to believe that there is no way to allow for sideloading of some form on iOS. I don't think GP meant that it wasn't technically possible, they were saying it isn't possible for this switch to exist without some popular apps eventually getting almost everyone to flip the switch and negate the whole point of having a switch. I don't think I agree with them because Android already has this switch and I can't think of many apps that lots of users would want to sideload, except for Fortnite.
- ninjin 5y ago
  Just to clarify, I do not think that orangeoxidation holds the position that it is technically impossible. I just think that there is no evidence that it is either technically impossible or – like you – that there is any evidence or good reason to believe that sideloading would turn iOS into the wild west. Rather, I think that the argument is sloppy, lazy, and frankly relies on a severe lack of imagination and rigidity of mind from those that present or accept it. Thus we should stop parroting it as it makes for a very boring discussion. Instead, maybe there is an interesting discussion to be had as to whether Google maintains control using Google Play Services? Technical aspects of how a consent mechanisms could work relative to bootloader unlocking? The viability of Apple’s offerings in terms of better privacy and payment UI if something like Fortnite “broke free” and started a competing store? All this sounds endlessly more fun to read and contribute to compared to: “I am content with the status quo, it serves me well, and I see no reason to discuss this further with you freedom zealots!”.

encryptluks2 5y ago

If you lose out on an app because they decide to exclude themselves from the app store, couldn't you just find another app that doesn't exclude themselves that caters more towards your philosophy?

Gaelan 5y ago
The top 10 free apps on the App Store, at time of writing, are TikTok, HBO Max, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Messenger, Snapchat, Zoom, Gmail, and Google Maps. Until Gmail, every single one of those provides access to content that can't be accessed thorough another app—a more ethical Snapchat doesn't have any of my Snapchat-using friends, and a more ethical HBO Max doesn't have the movie I want to watch. So no, in practice, the option is to get the app, wherever it's available, or decide to do without whatever it's offering.
- ccouzens 5y ago
  YouTube, Instagram, Facebook and Google Maps all have good enough experiences using a mobile web browser. You don't need their app to access their content.