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True, it's not malicious intent; if facebook could squeeze every cent out of their platform while advertising scented candles, they certainly would. It's the in

True, it's not malicious intent; if facebook could squeeze every cent out of their platform while advertising scented candles, they certainly would. It's the indifference that matters though.

ryandrake 6y ago
Not sure intent is relevant. Does intent matter when the system is so huge and no single person probably understands or directs it? The Purpose Of A System Is What It Does [1]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_what_it_does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...
- sodality2 6y ago
  The ultimate issue is that Facebook is incentivized to allow more ads on the platform. Their ad system does need to be fixed, I agree. Intent doesn't matter much, I agree; it's the final result, which is that they are advertising ads that make them more money, which is more commonly immoral things like gambling to minors, etc. Like I said, it's the fact that Facebook largely doesn't care where it goes as long as they make money (as can be seen by their ad systems) that is more telling than their intent.
- t-writescode 6y ago
  I don't buy that philosophy for short-lived things that haven't had a chance to be acted upon. If a system is in place and continues to do a thing after concerns are brought up, then absolutely, that's an argument that can be made; but, for each new class of mistake a system makes, you can't just say that that's what it was designed to do. It's unfair to the designers, the people in the know, etc. You'll never win people over by telling them the thing they attempted to create, with many years of sweat and tears, was _designed_ to do something nefarious if it wasn't. If they don't change after evidence to the contrary, then this can be brought up; but before then, it's inappropriate.
  - ryandrake 6y ago
    I’d agree if this was the first time bad behavior was uncovered. And it’s not just FB, Silicon Valley seems to have a big problem with big systems that, like Frankenstein, escaped the intent of their creators and fell into this algorithmic evil maximization trap.
    - t-writescode 6y ago
      This is probably the first time it's being reported in a meaningful way that their system enables targeting children for illegal products (presuming vaping is illegal in Australia or the United States for those under 18, which is a separate question, since the only one that passed looked like a vaping product if I understand what I saw in the article)
xbar 6y ago
Some ads can never be posted on Facebook (prostitution, child pornography, murder for hire, firearms). Facebook is capable of filtering ads. It is mission critical for them to do so. It is the thing they are best at in the history of the known universe: showing the right ad for maximum value and not showing ads that are not of maximum value. These ads are posted. This is intent.
- Nasrudith 6y ago
  Notice something about those ads excluded? They are simple red line unconditional "no's". Add in judgement calls and there will be fuck-ups. Of course lack of judgement can lead to its own class of fuck ups like offending people for "reject ads for military recruiting because they showed a gun in them".
- sodality2 6y ago
  By intent, I mean facebook does not choose specifically immoral things and it just happens to be super profitable; they show whatever is profitable, which happens to be immoral things. I don't mean "they don't mean to show bad ads" because they do, I mean "they would just as quickly choose another category if it meant more profits".

True, it's not malicious intent; if facebook could squeeze every cent out of their platform while advertising scented candles, they certainly would. It's the indifference that matters though.

ryandrake 6y ago

Not sure intent is relevant. Does intent matter when the system is so huge and no single person probably understands or directs it? The Purpose Of A System Is What It Does [1]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_what_it_does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...

sodality2 6y ago
The ultimate issue is that Facebook is incentivized to allow more ads on the platform. Their ad system does need to be fixed, I agree. Intent doesn't matter much, I agree; it's the final result, which is that they are advertising ads that make them more money, which is more commonly immoral things like gambling to minors, etc. Like I said, it's the fact that Facebook largely doesn't care where it goes as long as they make money (as can be seen by their ad systems) that is more telling than their intent.
t-writescode 6y ago
I don't buy that philosophy for short-lived things that haven't had a chance to be acted upon. If a system is in place and continues to do a thing after concerns are brought up, then absolutely, that's an argument that can be made; but, for each new class of mistake a system makes, you can't just say that that's what it was designed to do. It's unfair to the designers, the people in the know, etc. You'll never win people over by telling them the thing they attempted to create, with many years of sweat and tears, was _designed_ to do something nefarious if it wasn't. If they don't change after evidence to the contrary, then this can be brought up; but before then, it's inappropriate.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  I’d agree if this was the first time bad behavior was uncovered. And it’s not just FB, Silicon Valley seems to have a big problem with big systems that, like Frankenstein, escaped the intent of their creators and fell into this algorithmic evil maximization trap.
  - t-writescode 6y ago
    This is probably the first time it's being reported in a meaningful way that their system enables targeting children for illegal products (presuming vaping is illegal in Australia or the United States for those under 18, which is a separate question, since the only one that passed looked like a vaping product if I understand what I saw in the article)

xbar 6y ago

Some ads can never be posted on Facebook (prostitution, child pornography, murder for hire, firearms). Facebook is capable of filtering ads. It is mission critical for them to do so. It is the thing they are best at in the history of the known universe: showing the right ad for maximum value and not showing ads that are not of maximum value. These ads are posted. This is intent.

Nasrudith 6y ago
Notice something about those ads excluded? They are simple red line unconditional "no's". Add in judgement calls and there will be fuck-ups. Of course lack of judgement can lead to its own class of fuck ups like offending people for "reject ads for military recruiting because they showed a gun in them".
sodality2 6y ago
By intent, I mean facebook does not choose specifically immoral things and it just happens to be super profitable; they show whatever is profitable, which happens to be immoral things. I don't mean "they don't mean to show bad ads" because they do, I mean "they would just as quickly choose another category if it meant more profits".