4 ms·

I feel like we keep getting these inquiries/lawsuits/press releases every year but, literally, nothing gets any better at all. Every developer KNOWS that Googl

by ent101 5y ago

I feel like we keep getting these inquiries/lawsuits/press releases every year but, literally, nothing gets any better at all. Every developer KNOWS that Google is extremely abusive towards them solely because of their position in the market yet nothing ever improves. If these are not illegal monopolies, what is?!

mulmen 5y ago
Well, the problem is that they aren't monopolies. They may be problematic but we don't have laws or regulations to deal with this specific situation. And when we call it a "monopoly" because that seems to be the closest thing then the defenders of these organizations can say "but it's not a monopoly!" and they are right. So if you think it is problematic to have two players in a market even when they are on equal footing then you need to promote legislation to make that illegal. Or if you think there's something specifically harmful about this pair of dominant players then those externalities need to be addressed through legislation. But shouting "monopoly" is, at this point, counter-productive IMHO.
- clusterfish 5y ago
  Our laws leave a lot to be desired, but being a monopoly is neither sufficient nor required to get hammered: https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=bd2b38f1-9b66-448f-9bca-835c2fb9b94e https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=bd2b38f1-9b66... What's required, and lacking, is the political will to prosecute.
- wjdp 5y ago
  Oh go on then, a duopoly with fairly entrenched user bases and no real chance of additional players.
- madeofpalk 5y ago
  "Citation needed". Whether they’re a monopoly or not is an opinion, one which Epic is currently trying to assert in court.
- paranoidrobot 5y ago
  Whether something's a monopoly depends on context. If I live in a country with only one phone provider, is that a monopoly? To someone living in that country, yes. But, I could live in another country, and use another phone provider. See, I have choice, therefore it's not a monopoly, right? If you buy an Apple device, your only choice for where to get apps from is from Apple's store. Within that market, they are a monopoly. They control what stores run on that platform, and they choose not to permit competition. What rationale they use for not permitting alternative stores, what terms they set for apps to be on their platform, those are all different issues. I can choose not to use Apple's devices, sure, but that doesn't alter that Apple is a monopoly on their own platform.
  - throwaway3699 5y ago
    Thinking about this as "App Stores" doesn't make sense for Apple. Forget App Stores. They tax more than half of the app revenue(!) just via iPhone alone. General purpose computing is something special and it needs to be defended, because it touches on almost all our civil rights discussions today. Global freedom of speech, privacy, etc... are all in the hands of less than a dozen companies. Which should start with forcing these devices open (everything from bootloader keys, basic information needed to get Linux running, etc...). I can tolerate Android like I tolerate Windows 10, but the iOS situation is just especially awful.
  - hwbehrens 5y ago
    In technical terms, this situation is referred to as a monopsony [0]; the customer can, at any time, go out and purchase apps from other sources. However, app developers cannot choose to "sell" their apps to other retailers, since there are basically only 2. It's a distinction without a difference in terms of the power they exert, but legally speaking, the distinction is relevant because the types of behaviors that are proscribed (in the U.S., at least) are relatively narrowly defined. This is not the first time these laws would have to be modified to account for shifts in market exploitation practices, nor will it be last. For a recent discussion of the topic, see [1]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsony [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/24/opinion/joan-robinson-economy-monopoly-labor.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/24/opinion/joan-robinson-eco...
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  They're a duopoly that has effectively formed a cartel to abuse their market power. The market power abuse is the illegal part, doesn't matter how many competitors there are.
- ThatPlayer 5y ago
  EU has previously declared them a monopoly when they fined Google, because they don't compete : https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_18_4581 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_18_... >Google's app store dominance is not constrained by Apple's App Store, which is only available on iOS devices.
- arvinsim 5y ago
  I agree. Our current laws were not made in the time when these technologies were widespread. Legislation of a new law would be the better solution than trying to classify them as a monopoly.
killingtime74 5y ago
Do you live in Australia?
- skeletonjelly 5y ago
  Important question! ACCC have quite the powers here that I see lacking in say the US
SilverRed 5y ago
They seem to be having some effect. Apple seems to have been opening up which may be in response to all the legal pressure. In recent times they have added the ability to set default apps and opened up the find my network to non Apple devices. These seem like things that wouldn't have happened without the legal pressure.

by ent101 5y ago

mulmen 5y ago

Well, the problem is that they aren't monopolies. They may be problematic but we don't have laws or regulations to deal with this specific situation. And when we call it a "monopoly" because that seems to be the closest thing then the defenders of these organizations can say "but it's not a monopoly!" and they are right. So if you think it is problematic to have two players in a market even when they are on equal footing then you need to promote legislation to make that illegal. Or if you think there's something specifically harmful about this pair of dominant players then those externalities need to be addressed through legislation. But shouting "monopoly" is, at this point, counter-productive IMHO.

clusterfish 5y ago
Our laws leave a lot to be desired, but being a monopoly is neither sufficient nor required to get hammered: https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=bd2b38f1-9b66-448f-9bca-835c2fb9b94e https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=bd2b38f1-9b66... What's required, and lacking, is the political will to prosecute.
wjdp 5y ago
Oh go on then, a duopoly with fairly entrenched user bases and no real chance of additional players.
madeofpalk 5y ago
"Citation needed". Whether they’re a monopoly or not is an opinion, one which Epic is currently trying to assert in court.
paranoidrobot 5y ago
Whether something's a monopoly depends on context. If I live in a country with only one phone provider, is that a monopoly? To someone living in that country, yes. But, I could live in another country, and use another phone provider. See, I have choice, therefore it's not a monopoly, right? If you buy an Apple device, your only choice for where to get apps from is from Apple's store. Within that market, they are a monopoly. They control what stores run on that platform, and they choose not to permit competition. What rationale they use for not permitting alternative stores, what terms they set for apps to be on their platform, those are all different issues. I can choose not to use Apple's devices, sure, but that doesn't alter that Apple is a monopoly on their own platform.
- throwaway3699 5y ago
  Thinking about this as "App Stores" doesn't make sense for Apple. Forget App Stores. They tax more than half of the app revenue(!) just via iPhone alone. General purpose computing is something special and it needs to be defended, because it touches on almost all our civil rights discussions today. Global freedom of speech, privacy, etc... are all in the hands of less than a dozen companies. Which should start with forcing these devices open (everything from bootloader keys, basic information needed to get Linux running, etc...). I can tolerate Android like I tolerate Windows 10, but the iOS situation is just especially awful.
- hwbehrens 5y ago
  In technical terms, this situation is referred to as a monopsony [0]; the customer can, at any time, go out and purchase apps from other sources. However, app developers cannot choose to "sell" their apps to other retailers, since there are basically only 2. It's a distinction without a difference in terms of the power they exert, but legally speaking, the distinction is relevant because the types of behaviors that are proscribed (in the U.S., at least) are relatively narrowly defined. This is not the first time these laws would have to be modified to account for shifts in market exploitation practices, nor will it be last. For a recent discussion of the topic, see [1]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsony [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/24/opinion/joan-robinson-economy-monopoly-labor.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/24/opinion/joan-robinson-eco...
colinmhayes 5y ago
They're a duopoly that has effectively formed a cartel to abuse their market power. The market power abuse is the illegal part, doesn't matter how many competitors there are.
ThatPlayer 5y ago
EU has previously declared them a monopoly when they fined Google, because they don't compete : https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_18_4581 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_18_... >Google's app store dominance is not constrained by Apple's App Store, which is only available on iOS devices.
arvinsim 5y ago
I agree. Our current laws were not made in the time when these technologies were widespread. Legislation of a new law would be the better solution than trying to classify them as a monopoly.

killingtime74 5y ago

Do you live in Australia?

skeletonjelly 5y ago
Important question! ACCC have quite the powers here that I see lacking in say the US

SilverRed 5y ago

They seem to be having some effect. Apple seems to have been opening up which may be in response to all the legal pressure. In recent times they have added the ability to set default apps and opened up the find my network to non Apple devices. These seem like things that wouldn't have happened without the legal pressure.