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which is interesting as there is currently a beer can supply problem. breweries are now ordering more cans than ever, from as many places as possible in order

which is interesting as there is currently a beer can supply problem. breweries are now ordering more cans than ever, from as many places as possible in order to get their product in the hands of covid-plagued consumers. it's interesting to see cans from a brewery change depending on the week they were canned.

meristohm 5y ago
What’ll it take to make can deposits national? I remember a few years back Surly Brewing in Minneapolis, MN, USA was against increasing the deposit because they’d have to pay 8.5 cents for a five-cent deposit. Might we also try what Pacifico did (maybe still does?) with their ballenas—-paying for bottles returned intact, which they then wash and use again? I liked seeing the wear ring around the glass and wondering who else held this bottle.
- vidarh 5y ago
  Norway used to do this, and had a return rate well over 90% (largely due to people being able to return bottles pretty much anywhere that sold bottled drinks). The bottles have mostly switched to plastic. Return rates are still as high. The distributors argued the recycling of the plastic was better because a not insubstantial proportion of glass bottles ended up damaged enough to have to be melted down and recycled anyway and the energy input to recycle glass bottles is apparently substantially higher, combined with the labour cost to inspect each bottle.
  - tastyfreeze 5y ago
    I am willing to pay for the cost of glass bottles if they are recycled. Having to melt down a bottle to form it again is an ideal recycling situation. The customer returned glass that is already sorted and likely the same type of glass. Aluminum is another great recycleable material. Both glass and aluminum are eroded rather quickly in marine environments. Back to whence they came. Plastic just floats around a very long time.
    - vidarh 5y ago
      I'd agree with that, and it was a very heated debate but the change happened before plastic contamination was as heated a topic as it is now (~30 years or so ago) and what won out was the energy argument. The way recycling of bottles happens in Norway is actually quite interesting and would be very easily adjustable. Basically there's a tax on all drinks containers, but you can "buy yourself free" from the tax by demonstrating collection rates, and the tax is higher than the cost of recovering bottles for recycling so in practice most distributors and retailers are part of a collective recycling scheme that requires all of them to accept bottles for recycling. It stands out to me as a great model for relatively non-invasive government regulation, in that it's setting a cost to account for an externality, provides a relatively cheap option to mitigate it, but if another option works better for you, you can choose it. If you don't want to participate, you pay and other people get the tax deduction when people return your bottles elsewhere anyway. All that'd really be needed would be to adjust the initial tax rate to properly depend on the relative environmental cost of failing to collect different types of products.
      - meristohm 5y ago
        That sounds great; I’ll add it to my list of actions to lobby my elected officials for. I regularly pick up trash while walking around the neighborhood, in part under the impression that trash invites more trash. Much of the volume is cans and bottles, and more people might change their habits for the economics regardless of concern over land, water, air, and life.
- jerrysievert 5y ago
  I don't think it's lack of aluminum that is causing the can shortage. it's mostly that bars have been closed through much of the world, and beer distribution (which has increased during covid, along with other alcohol consumption) has needed to increase. in order for breweries to stay healthy, they've been turning to cans (and mobile canneries) to get their products in front of people and sold. that in turn increases the number of cans purchased by breweries, which is now much higher than the normal number of cans being produced. while I'm in favor of higher deposits (Oregon has 10 cents), I'm pretty sure it wouldn't change this current calculus.

meristohm 5y ago

What’ll it take to make can deposits national? I remember a few years back Surly Brewing in Minneapolis, MN, USA was against increasing the deposit because they’d have to pay 8.5 cents for a five-cent deposit. Might we also try what Pacifico did (maybe still does?) with their ballenas—-paying for bottles returned intact, which they then wash and use again? I liked seeing the wear ring around the glass and wondering who else held this bottle.

vidarh 5y ago
Norway used to do this, and had a return rate well over 90% (largely due to people being able to return bottles pretty much anywhere that sold bottled drinks). The bottles have mostly switched to plastic. Return rates are still as high. The distributors argued the recycling of the plastic was better because a not insubstantial proportion of glass bottles ended up damaged enough to have to be melted down and recycled anyway and the energy input to recycle glass bottles is apparently substantially higher, combined with the labour cost to inspect each bottle.
- tastyfreeze 5y ago
  I am willing to pay for the cost of glass bottles if they are recycled. Having to melt down a bottle to form it again is an ideal recycling situation. The customer returned glass that is already sorted and likely the same type of glass. Aluminum is another great recycleable material. Both glass and aluminum are eroded rather quickly in marine environments. Back to whence they came. Plastic just floats around a very long time.
  - vidarh 5y ago
    I'd agree with that, and it was a very heated debate but the change happened before plastic contamination was as heated a topic as it is now (~30 years or so ago) and what won out was the energy argument. The way recycling of bottles happens in Norway is actually quite interesting and would be very easily adjustable. Basically there's a tax on all drinks containers, but you can "buy yourself free" from the tax by demonstrating collection rates, and the tax is higher than the cost of recovering bottles for recycling so in practice most distributors and retailers are part of a collective recycling scheme that requires all of them to accept bottles for recycling. It stands out to me as a great model for relatively non-invasive government regulation, in that it's setting a cost to account for an externality, provides a relatively cheap option to mitigate it, but if another option works better for you, you can choose it. If you don't want to participate, you pay and other people get the tax deduction when people return your bottles elsewhere anyway. All that'd really be needed would be to adjust the initial tax rate to properly depend on the relative environmental cost of failing to collect different types of products.
    - meristohm 5y ago
      That sounds great; I’ll add it to my list of actions to lobby my elected officials for. I regularly pick up trash while walking around the neighborhood, in part under the impression that trash invites more trash. Much of the volume is cans and bottles, and more people might change their habits for the economics regardless of concern over land, water, air, and life.
jerrysievert 5y ago
I don't think it's lack of aluminum that is causing the can shortage. it's mostly that bars have been closed through much of the world, and beer distribution (which has increased during covid, along with other alcohol consumption) has needed to increase. in order for breweries to stay healthy, they've been turning to cans (and mobile canneries) to get their products in front of people and sold. that in turn increases the number of cans purchased by breweries, which is now much higher than the normal number of cans being produced. while I'm in favor of higher deposits (Oregon has 10 cents), I'm pretty sure it wouldn't change this current calculus.