5 ms·

+1 but especially our boys. Girls and women already learn so much about how to avoid being harmed by men. It’s time for our boys to learn how to become kind men

+1 but especially our boys. Girls and women already learn so much about how to avoid being harmed by men. It’s time for our boys to learn how to become kind men - and for those of us who are men to model that for them.

analognoise 5y ago
Doesn't this remove agency from women? If two adults get together, fly together, get a room together, drink wine together, have relations... Then we're supposed to say that consent can't be given because the woman is drunk. But they're both drunk. Isn't it essentially the patriarchy to say that a woman can't make that choice? Like if they're equals and they're both drunk, why do we blame the men? Because they aren't really equals? Isn't that what we're fighting against? We blame the men for not ignoring the wishes of the woman while drunk. It's a little bit chauvinistic to think the men know better isn't it?
- krapp 5y ago
  No, why on earth would it?
  - analognoise 5y ago
    It seems like everyone is equal, until everyone is drunk, then the women need to be treated like children and protected. Which is the very thing feminism was fighting AGAINST - having men make decisions for you. Then we blame men, say they need to do better. That seems ridiculous.
    - sweetheart 5y ago
      > then the women need to be treated like children and protected. Mate, no. This applies to men, women, nonbinary folks, non-human animals, etc. Literally any living thing. If you don't consent, anyone having sex with you is wrong. It's wrong if a man tries to have sex with a drunk, non-consenting person, and it's wrong if a women tries to have sex with a drunk, non-consenting person. This is the _opposite_ of making a decision for someone. It's recognizing that they kind of _can't_ make a decision, so you simply do nothing.
      - analognoise 5y ago
        ...so why is the part about them drinking in the story? They were consenting adults, both well within their senses? Or was she like unconscious and he's an absolute monster?
      - JamesBarney 5y ago
        By non-consenting do you mean says no or didn't say yes?
        sweetheart 5y ago
        They are the same.
    - stadium 5y ago
      The guy was a predator, there was a clear pattern of sexual and emotional abuse.
      - analognoise 5y ago
        "Predator" also implies the other party had no agency. It's this weird thing that keeps popping up...
        stadium 5y ago
        Educate yourself on narcissistic abuse for more info.
        analognoise 5y ago
        Thanks, I'll read up on it.
      - grammarnazzzi 5y ago
        In her story. A story that paints him as responsible for everything including her feelings. Blaming behaviors are a marker of Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder. I'm obviously not qualified to diagnose either party, but a lot of the content of her article blames him for things he's not responsible for and that are completely out of his control. Furthermore, it seems the worst he's guilty of is being interested in having consensual sex with her. Whereas she's interested in destroying his livelihood and career.
        stadium 5y ago
        > For example, when I confronted him in person about the episode in Berlin, he told me that I had lured him. His words left me scared, humiliated, and ashamed. I found myself self-doubting, distressed, and depressed. Ya from an armchair this does seem like classic narcissistic abuse. Mentor public figure in a position of power. Blame and gaslight the victim when confronted. Then shame the victim when she comes forward with her story.
- suifbwish 5y ago
  Yes
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  At least here in California (and presumably much of the US) the threshold isn't merely intoxication. It's intoxication to the point that someone is incapable of consent. Not impaired judgment or above the legal driving limit, but drunk to the point that they are not even capable of giving a yes/no. If two people are drunk and have sex, evidently at least one of them was capable of consent because they had the capacity to initiate sex.
  - analognoise 5y ago
    Thanks for the clarification, I didn't know that. So neither of them would classify, in this story? So it was just two consenting adults, and the part about wine was... Flavor text, essentially? Unless she was saying she was unconscious and I missed it. I thought the implication there was essentially that she couldn't give consent, which is a rape accusation - that's very serious. But it doesn't sound like either of them would pass the bar for inability to give consent? Unless I read it wrong.
  - suifbwish 5y ago
    People have the capacity to initiate all sorts of stupid things when they are too intoxicated to consent to anything legally.
    - Manuel_D 5y ago
      Maybe in the case of financial agreements or other contracts, but that's not how sexual consent works with respect to alcohol. Otherwise, what happens if two people are both drunk and they both have sex? They're both simultaneously victims of and perpetrators of rape? The above commenter is insinuating that society applies a double standard here: that if an intoxicated man and woman have sex, the former is considered a perpetrator while the latter is considered a victim. That is incorrect, both are treated equally in the eyes of the law. This scenario doesn't happen because if two people had sex at least one was sober enough to decide to have sex. This situation where two people are intoxicated to the point where they are incapable of consenting have sex cannot occur. Here's the actual law: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201320140SB967 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml... > A policy that, in the evaluation of complaints in the disciplinary process, it shall not be a valid excuse that the accused believed that the complainant affirmatively consented to the sexual activity if the accused knew or reasonably should have known that the complainant was unable to consent to the sexual activity under any of the following circumstances: > The complainant was incapacitated due to the influence of drugs, alcohol, or medication, so that the complainant could not understand the fact, nature, or extent of the sexual activity.
- scala_boob 5y ago
  It's not supposed to be fair, the women are always right
- try_again 5y ago
  Consent is too often treated as this magical concept that makes everything right when it's present in some form. Many people seem to think of consent as a "yes" when often it's more a lack of "no". Someone not protesting or going along with something doesn't absolve the other party of responsibility. Heck, even explicit consent doesn't do that. Would you accept someone repeatedly offering another person in their company drugs when that person hasn't outright refused them but not really shown interest either? When someone goes along with something but ends up feeling uncomfortable or even resentful about it, they can talk about it with the other party. And that party should acknowledge it. They may have meant no harm or even be surprised or feel hurt, but a decent person would consider the other's feelings and admit they may have had poor judgement. This Jon Pretty guy allegedly has a pattern of maneuvering women into vulnerable positions, inappropriately bragging about his "conquests" and from what multiple sources confirm shows a bunch of telltale signs of an emotional abuser and manipulator. It wasn't one instance of them being drunk, it was an extensive period of pushing boundaries, coercion and probably gaslighting. You'll always hear questions along these lines. "Why did she stay around him if she was uncomfortable/mistreated/abused?" "Why did she wait so long to talk about it if it bothered her so much?" "Why didn't she collect proof?" "Why didn't she just say no?" These questions interpret the situation as far too simple. Abusers are great at creating doubt. They do something wrong, they make their victims feel as equal accomplices. Good and fun times are alternated with bad ones. They don't outright break the law or force someone but will push boundaries and wear someone down repeatedly to get their way despite the discomfort of the other. That's why it's so hard for a victim to come forward. It's exactly because everyone says "well you didn't set hard boundaries, did you?" It's because maybe no crime was committed according to the letter of the law so they don't feel like they really have a case to make. It's because the victim initially feels like they share as much responsibility or it's their own fault and they should have known better. Abusers are great at walking that line where they get what they want while still maintaining plausible deniability, making it impossible to fully dismiss the argument that the other person is responsible too. It lets them justify their actions to themselves and others, believing it was as much the agency of the other party as their own. Meanwhile they're constantly using a position of power and a victim's weaknesses to manufacture precisely the situation they want. They call them predators for a reason. It's cause they seek out prey. They know what to look for in a potential target. Don't blame a victim for being possibly naive, inexperienced or easy to sway when those were exactly the preconditions to be taken advantage of. It doesn't justify someone doing just that.
- globular-toast 5y ago
  Pretty much, yes. Women are held to the same standard as children in situations like. Sharing a room with a male stranger? How could she possibly know something was wrong. Poor, sweet, innocent woman. The man is expected to be the adult.
throway98752343 5y ago
Boys should be educated, but this will still happen. I cannot believe this guy doesn't know that what he's doing is wrong. We should identify and mitigate high potential threats by public warning, ostracism or legal action. Overcorrect if necessary.
- eecc 5y ago
  > Overcorrect if necessary. Hell no, that’s what all our legal systems are not about and there are also provisions against this sort of zealotry. And rightly so, it’s such a historically proven road to hell and unintended consequences.
suifbwish 5y ago
Are you implying that rape occurs because someone’s parents didn’t tell them not to or that they would not rape if their parents HAD told them not to do it?
- Zelphyr 5y ago
  Please don't put words in other people's mouths either. I think it's clear from GP's post that that's NOT what they were implying.
  - suifbwish 5y ago
    Then can you explain how “it’s time to teach our boys to become kind men” is relevant to the original discussion?
    - Zelphyr 5y ago
      "Son, I want to talk to you about something. You're getting older and obviously you're interested in sex. Being sexual is a healthy and normal part of being human. Know that I support you if you are gay, straight, non-binary, binary, etc... I love you because you are you and that will never change. As your father, it is important to me that you are a kind and caring person. Kindness comes in many forms, many of which are obvious. Such as lending your arm to an elderly woman trying cross a busy, snow-covered street, for example. Kindness is also being generous to and patient with your partner before, during, and after sex. It is being aware of their needs and desires as well as what they don't like. To that end; nobody, and I mean nobody, should be forced to have sex. If your partner doesn't clearly consent to having sex with you then it is forced. To do otherwise is an act of violence--the opposite of kindness. If you are unsure about whether your partner wants to have sex then they don't. It is my sincerest hope that one day you find someone who you will fall in love with and who will fall in love with you. When you do, you will find that kindness plays an important role in that. Because sometimes that person will treat you poorly. They will be angry, short, and disrespectful to you. And you will do the same to them. That is part of being in a healthy relationship. It's unpleasant but it's how we grow. One thing I have learned in the years spent with your mother is that returning such anger and disrespect with kindness goes a long way towards developing a deep and lasting bond with one another. Know that I am always available to you if you have any questions about sex, or any other subject for that matter. I know it's uncomfortable to talk about this right now. It is for me too. But it will get easier the more we talk about it so come to me anytime you feel you need to."
elzbardico 5y ago
Not to mention that boys, small boys in particular are frequent targets of abuse. At certain ages even more than girls. And an abused boy could well become an abuser in the future. Sad but true
- btilly 5y ago
  And an abused boy could well become an abuser in the future. Sad but true Are you talking sexual abuse? If so, then references please. There are a lot of ways that abuse goes down the generations. For example girls who were abused are more likely to get together with abusive men as adults. But I've encountered zero evidence that victims of pedophiles are particularly likely to become pedophiles themselves when they grow up. I have personal reasons to be interested in the topic, so I spent a lot of time at one point looking for evidence that sexually abused boys were likely to become sexual abusers as adults. I have concluded that such evidence both doesn't exist, and it isn't true. Had I known that when I was younger, I could have avoided a whole lot of guilt and self-hatred.
  - swagcombinator 5y ago
    I just did some research. To me I always hear pedophiles themselves admitting that they were abused when they were children. for example here https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/72050039.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/72050039.pdf https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2082860/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2082860/ but both of the studies says that the self reports are questionable.
    - btilly 5y ago
      Yes, those self-reports are very highly questionable. First of all, we all rework our childhood memories to better fit our adult personas. Depressed people talk about all of the terrible things that happened to them as kids which make them depressed now. Happy people, all of the happy things that happened that make them happy now. A gay man might talk about wearing dresses and playing with dolls that made him gay. But attempts to corroborate current stories with past events (the gold standard being longitudinal studies) find that none of that is true. Happy and depressed people have the usual mix of happy and sad childhood events, they just remember them selectively. The gay man's twin brother says maybe he wore a dress once, and has made a mountain out of a molehill. And so on. Pedophiles are even worse. Pedophiles have the problem that they fall in love with children, and have to gaslight themselves into believing that they do no harm by having sex with the child. Under this pressure, pedophiles make up memories out of whole cloth. However in general, we have not found any correlation between what actually happened to you before puberty, and who you wind up sexually attracted to after. We can't predict whether you'll be straight. Whether you'll be gay. Or whether you'll be a pedophile. Which means that if you were the unfortunate target of a pedophile, there is no particular reason to believe that have anything other than the 1% risk that every boy does of growing up into one.
epicureanideal 5y ago
Boys and men are constantly taught to be kind and protective toward women and even deferential to their wants. Just because there might be a small percent of men who have psychological disorders or otherwise don't behave properly doesn't mean that 95%+ of men don't have GOOD character, whether or not that comes from education. But I think we should also be teaching boys and men how not to be victims. Both sexes can be abusers, and we spend almost no time teaching boys and men how to recognize and escape abusive situations.

analognoise 5y ago

Doesn't this remove agency from women? If two adults get together, fly together, get a room together, drink wine together, have relations... Then we're supposed to say that consent can't be given because the woman is drunk. But they're both drunk. Isn't it essentially the patriarchy to say that a woman can't make that choice? Like if they're equals and they're both drunk, why do we blame the men? Because they aren't really equals? Isn't that what we're fighting against? We blame the men for not ignoring the wishes of the woman while drunk. It's a little bit chauvinistic to think the men know better isn't it?

krapp 5y ago
No, why on earth would it?
- analognoise 5y ago
  It seems like everyone is equal, until everyone is drunk, then the women need to be treated like children and protected. Which is the very thing feminism was fighting AGAINST - having men make decisions for you. Then we blame men, say they need to do better. That seems ridiculous.
  - sweetheart 5y ago
    > then the women need to be treated like children and protected. Mate, no. This applies to men, women, nonbinary folks, non-human animals, etc. Literally any living thing. If you don't consent, anyone having sex with you is wrong. It's wrong if a man tries to have sex with a drunk, non-consenting person, and it's wrong if a women tries to have sex with a drunk, non-consenting person. This is the _opposite_ of making a decision for someone. It's recognizing that they kind of _can't_ make a decision, so you simply do nothing.
    - analognoise 5y ago
      ...so why is the part about them drinking in the story? They were consenting adults, both well within their senses? Or was she like unconscious and he's an absolute monster?
    - JamesBarney 5y ago
      By non-consenting do you mean says no or didn't say yes?
      - sweetheart 5y ago
        They are the same.
  - stadium 5y ago
    The guy was a predator, there was a clear pattern of sexual and emotional abuse.
    - analognoise 5y ago
      "Predator" also implies the other party had no agency. It's this weird thing that keeps popping up...
      - stadium 5y ago
        Educate yourself on narcissistic abuse for more info.
        analognoise 5y ago
        Thanks, I'll read up on it.
    - grammarnazzzi 5y ago
      In her story. A story that paints him as responsible for everything including her feelings. Blaming behaviors are a marker of Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder. I'm obviously not qualified to diagnose either party, but a lot of the content of her article blames him for things he's not responsible for and that are completely out of his control. Furthermore, it seems the worst he's guilty of is being interested in having consensual sex with her. Whereas she's interested in destroying his livelihood and career.
      - stadium 5y ago
        > For example, when I confronted him in person about the episode in Berlin, he told me that I had lured him. His words left me scared, humiliated, and ashamed. I found myself self-doubting, distressed, and depressed. Ya from an armchair this does seem like classic narcissistic abuse. Mentor public figure in a position of power. Blame and gaslight the victim when confronted. Then shame the victim when she comes forward with her story.
suifbwish 5y ago
Yes
Manuel_D 5y ago
At least here in California (and presumably much of the US) the threshold isn't merely intoxication. It's intoxication to the point that someone is incapable of consent. Not impaired judgment or above the legal driving limit, but drunk to the point that they are not even capable of giving a yes/no. If two people are drunk and have sex, evidently at least one of them was capable of consent because they had the capacity to initiate sex.
- analognoise 5y ago
  Thanks for the clarification, I didn't know that. So neither of them would classify, in this story? So it was just two consenting adults, and the part about wine was... Flavor text, essentially? Unless she was saying she was unconscious and I missed it. I thought the implication there was essentially that she couldn't give consent, which is a rape accusation - that's very serious. But it doesn't sound like either of them would pass the bar for inability to give consent? Unless I read it wrong.
- suifbwish 5y ago
  People have the capacity to initiate all sorts of stupid things when they are too intoxicated to consent to anything legally.
  - Manuel_D 5y ago
    Maybe in the case of financial agreements or other contracts, but that's not how sexual consent works with respect to alcohol. Otherwise, what happens if two people are both drunk and they both have sex? They're both simultaneously victims of and perpetrators of rape? The above commenter is insinuating that society applies a double standard here: that if an intoxicated man and woman have sex, the former is considered a perpetrator while the latter is considered a victim. That is incorrect, both are treated equally in the eyes of the law. This scenario doesn't happen because if two people had sex at least one was sober enough to decide to have sex. This situation where two people are intoxicated to the point where they are incapable of consenting have sex cannot occur. Here's the actual law: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201320140SB967 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml... > A policy that, in the evaluation of complaints in the disciplinary process, it shall not be a valid excuse that the accused believed that the complainant affirmatively consented to the sexual activity if the accused knew or reasonably should have known that the complainant was unable to consent to the sexual activity under any of the following circumstances: > The complainant was incapacitated due to the influence of drugs, alcohol, or medication, so that the complainant could not understand the fact, nature, or extent of the sexual activity.
scala_boob 5y ago
It's not supposed to be fair, the women are always right
try_again 5y ago
Consent is too often treated as this magical concept that makes everything right when it's present in some form. Many people seem to think of consent as a "yes" when often it's more a lack of "no". Someone not protesting or going along with something doesn't absolve the other party of responsibility. Heck, even explicit consent doesn't do that. Would you accept someone repeatedly offering another person in their company drugs when that person hasn't outright refused them but not really shown interest either? When someone goes along with something but ends up feeling uncomfortable or even resentful about it, they can talk about it with the other party. And that party should acknowledge it. They may have meant no harm or even be surprised or feel hurt, but a decent person would consider the other's feelings and admit they may have had poor judgement. This Jon Pretty guy allegedly has a pattern of maneuvering women into vulnerable positions, inappropriately bragging about his "conquests" and from what multiple sources confirm shows a bunch of telltale signs of an emotional abuser and manipulator. It wasn't one instance of them being drunk, it was an extensive period of pushing boundaries, coercion and probably gaslighting. You'll always hear questions along these lines. "Why did she stay around him if she was uncomfortable/mistreated/abused?" "Why did she wait so long to talk about it if it bothered her so much?" "Why didn't she collect proof?" "Why didn't she just say no?" These questions interpret the situation as far too simple. Abusers are great at creating doubt. They do something wrong, they make their victims feel as equal accomplices. Good and fun times are alternated with bad ones. They don't outright break the law or force someone but will push boundaries and wear someone down repeatedly to get their way despite the discomfort of the other. That's why it's so hard for a victim to come forward. It's exactly because everyone says "well you didn't set hard boundaries, did you?" It's because maybe no crime was committed according to the letter of the law so they don't feel like they really have a case to make. It's because the victim initially feels like they share as much responsibility or it's their own fault and they should have known better. Abusers are great at walking that line where they get what they want while still maintaining plausible deniability, making it impossible to fully dismiss the argument that the other person is responsible too. It lets them justify their actions to themselves and others, believing it was as much the agency of the other party as their own. Meanwhile they're constantly using a position of power and a victim's weaknesses to manufacture precisely the situation they want. They call them predators for a reason. It's cause they seek out prey. They know what to look for in a potential target. Don't blame a victim for being possibly naive, inexperienced or easy to sway when those were exactly the preconditions to be taken advantage of. It doesn't justify someone doing just that.
globular-toast 5y ago
Pretty much, yes. Women are held to the same standard as children in situations like. Sharing a room with a male stranger? How could she possibly know something was wrong. Poor, sweet, innocent woman. The man is expected to be the adult.

throway98752343 5y ago

Boys should be educated, but this will still happen. I cannot believe this guy doesn't know that what he's doing is wrong. We should identify and mitigate high potential threats by public warning, ostracism or legal action. Overcorrect if necessary.

eecc 5y ago
> Overcorrect if necessary. Hell no, that’s what all our legal systems are not about and there are also provisions against this sort of zealotry. And rightly so, it’s such a historically proven road to hell and unintended consequences.

suifbwish 5y ago

Are you implying that rape occurs because someone’s parents didn’t tell them not to or that they would not rape if their parents HAD told them not to do it?

Zelphyr 5y ago
Please don't put words in other people's mouths either. I think it's clear from GP's post that that's NOT what they were implying.
- suifbwish 5y ago
  Then can you explain how “it’s time to teach our boys to become kind men” is relevant to the original discussion?
  - Zelphyr 5y ago
    "Son, I want to talk to you about something. You're getting older and obviously you're interested in sex. Being sexual is a healthy and normal part of being human. Know that I support you if you are gay, straight, non-binary, binary, etc... I love you because you are you and that will never change. As your father, it is important to me that you are a kind and caring person. Kindness comes in many forms, many of which are obvious. Such as lending your arm to an elderly woman trying cross a busy, snow-covered street, for example. Kindness is also being generous to and patient with your partner before, during, and after sex. It is being aware of their needs and desires as well as what they don't like. To that end; nobody, and I mean nobody, should be forced to have sex. If your partner doesn't clearly consent to having sex with you then it is forced. To do otherwise is an act of violence--the opposite of kindness. If you are unsure about whether your partner wants to have sex then they don't. It is my sincerest hope that one day you find someone who you will fall in love with and who will fall in love with you. When you do, you will find that kindness plays an important role in that. Because sometimes that person will treat you poorly. They will be angry, short, and disrespectful to you. And you will do the same to them. That is part of being in a healthy relationship. It's unpleasant but it's how we grow. One thing I have learned in the years spent with your mother is that returning such anger and disrespect with kindness goes a long way towards developing a deep and lasting bond with one another. Know that I am always available to you if you have any questions about sex, or any other subject for that matter. I know it's uncomfortable to talk about this right now. It is for me too. But it will get easier the more we talk about it so come to me anytime you feel you need to."

elzbardico 5y ago

Not to mention that boys, small boys in particular are frequent targets of abuse. At certain ages even more than girls. And an abused boy could well become an abuser in the future. Sad but true

btilly 5y ago
And an abused boy could well become an abuser in the future. Sad but true Are you talking sexual abuse? If so, then references please. There are a lot of ways that abuse goes down the generations. For example girls who were abused are more likely to get together with abusive men as adults. But I've encountered zero evidence that victims of pedophiles are particularly likely to become pedophiles themselves when they grow up. I have personal reasons to be interested in the topic, so I spent a lot of time at one point looking for evidence that sexually abused boys were likely to become sexual abusers as adults. I have concluded that such evidence both doesn't exist, and it isn't true. Had I known that when I was younger, I could have avoided a whole lot of guilt and self-hatred.
- swagcombinator 5y ago
  I just did some research. To me I always hear pedophiles themselves admitting that they were abused when they were children. for example here https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/72050039.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/72050039.pdf https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2082860/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2082860/ but both of the studies says that the self reports are questionable.
  - btilly 5y ago
    Yes, those self-reports are very highly questionable. First of all, we all rework our childhood memories to better fit our adult personas. Depressed people talk about all of the terrible things that happened to them as kids which make them depressed now. Happy people, all of the happy things that happened that make them happy now. A gay man might talk about wearing dresses and playing with dolls that made him gay. But attempts to corroborate current stories with past events (the gold standard being longitudinal studies) find that none of that is true. Happy and depressed people have the usual mix of happy and sad childhood events, they just remember them selectively. The gay man's twin brother says maybe he wore a dress once, and has made a mountain out of a molehill. And so on. Pedophiles are even worse. Pedophiles have the problem that they fall in love with children, and have to gaslight themselves into believing that they do no harm by having sex with the child. Under this pressure, pedophiles make up memories out of whole cloth. However in general, we have not found any correlation between what actually happened to you before puberty, and who you wind up sexually attracted to after. We can't predict whether you'll be straight. Whether you'll be gay. Or whether you'll be a pedophile. Which means that if you were the unfortunate target of a pedophile, there is no particular reason to believe that have anything other than the 1% risk that every boy does of growing up into one.

epicureanideal 5y ago

Boys and men are constantly taught to be kind and protective toward women and even deferential to their wants. Just because there might be a small percent of men who have psychological disorders or otherwise don't behave properly doesn't mean that 95%+ of men don't have GOOD character, whether or not that comes from education. But I think we should also be teaching boys and men how not to be victims. Both sexes can be abusers, and we spend almost no time teaching boys and men how to recognize and escape abusive situations.