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There is a lot about the sexual events in this post that, to me, highlights something I feel is important which is: we parents need to get better had having con

There is a lot about the sexual events in this post that, to me, highlights something I feel is important which is: we parents need to get better had having conversations with our children around sex. This girl was feeling uncomfortable and crying but at the same time "didn't think those behaviors were problematic". I can't help but wonder if her parents never sat her down and discussed situations like this and, I get it. That's a really uncomfortable conversation to have with your child. It is, however, an important one. This doesn't just apply to girls by the way. We parents need to be telling our sons what kind of behavior is and isn't acceptable. It's not enough to expect them to figure it out. Who are they figuring it out from if not us? Probably other inexperienced boys. Please don't rush to put words in my mouth by thinking I am suggesting the guy in the article is innocent of the accusations. I'm making no commentary on either party from this article. That's for the courts to decide should one or both parties choose to take that course of action. I'm simply saying it is important that parents overcome their discomfort around discussions of sex with their children so that the children can make informed decisions.

faitswulff 5y ago
+1 but especially our boys. Girls and women already learn so much about how to avoid being harmed by men. It’s time for our boys to learn how to become kind men - and for those of us who are men to model that for them.
- analognoise 5y ago
  Doesn't this remove agency from women? If two adults get together, fly together, get a room together, drink wine together, have relations... Then we're supposed to say that consent can't be given because the woman is drunk. But they're both drunk. Isn't it essentially the patriarchy to say that a woman can't make that choice? Like if they're equals and they're both drunk, why do we blame the men? Because they aren't really equals? Isn't that what we're fighting against? We blame the men for not ignoring the wishes of the woman while drunk. It's a little bit chauvinistic to think the men know better isn't it?
  - krapp 5y ago
    No, why on earth would it?
    - analognoise 5y ago
      It seems like everyone is equal, until everyone is drunk, then the women need to be treated like children and protected. Which is the very thing feminism was fighting AGAINST - having men make decisions for you. Then we blame men, say they need to do better. That seems ridiculous.
      - sweetheart 5y ago
        > then the women need to be treated like children and protected. Mate, no. This applies to men, women, nonbinary folks, non-human animals, etc. Literally any living thing. If you don't consent, anyone having sex with you is wrong. It's wrong if a man tries to have sex with a drunk, non-consenting person, and it's wrong if a women tries to have sex with a drunk, non-consenting person. This is the _opposite_ of making a decision for someone. It's recognizing that they kind of _can't_ make a decision, so you simply do nothing.
        analognoise 5y ago
        ...so why is the part about them drinking in the story? They were consenting adults, both well within their senses? Or was she like unconscious and he's an absolute monster?
        JamesBarney 5y ago
        By non-consenting do you mean says no or didn't say yes?
        sweetheart 5y ago
        They are the same.
      - 5y ago
- throway98752343 5y ago
  Boys should be educated, but this will still happen. I cannot believe this guy doesn't know that what he's doing is wrong. We should identify and mitigate high potential threats by public warning, ostracism or legal action. Overcorrect if necessary.
  - eecc 5y ago
    > Overcorrect if necessary. Hell no, that’s what all our legal systems are not about and there are also provisions against this sort of zealotry. And rightly so, it’s such a historically proven road to hell and unintended consequences.
- suifbwish 5y ago
  Are you implying that rape occurs because someone’s parents didn’t tell them not to or that they would not rape if their parents HAD told them not to do it?
  - Zelphyr 5y ago
    Please don't put words in other people's mouths either. I think it's clear from GP's post that that's NOT what they were implying.
    - suifbwish 5y ago
      Then can you explain how “it’s time to teach our boys to become kind men” is relevant to the original discussion?
      - Zelphyr 5y ago
        "Son, I want to talk to you about something. You're getting older and obviously you're interested in sex. Being sexual is a healthy and normal part of being human. Know that I support you if you are gay, straight, non-binary, binary, etc... I love you because you are you and that will never change. As your father, it is important to me that you are a kind and caring person. Kindness comes in many forms, many of which are obvious. Such as lending your arm to an elderly woman trying cross a busy, snow-covered street, for example. Kindness is also being generous to and patient with your partner before, during, and after sex. It is being aware of their needs and desires as well as what they don't like. To that end; nobody, and I mean nobody, should be forced to have sex. If your partner doesn't clearly consent to having sex with you then it is forced. To do otherwise is an act of violence--the opposite of kindness. If you are unsure about whether your partner wants to have sex then they don't. It is my sincerest hope that one day you find someone who you will fall in love with and who will fall in love with you. When you do, you will find that kindness plays an important role in that. Because sometimes that person will treat you poorly. They will be angry, short, and disrespectful to you. And you will do the same to them. That is part of being in a healthy relationship. It's unpleasant but it's how we grow. One thing I have learned in the years spent with your mother is that returning such anger and disrespect with kindness goes a long way towards developing a deep and lasting bond with one another. Know that I am always available to you if you have any questions about sex, or any other subject for that matter. I know it's uncomfortable to talk about this right now. It is for me too. But it will get easier the more we talk about it so come to me anytime you feel you need to."
- elzbardico 5y ago
  Not to mention that boys, small boys in particular are frequent targets of abuse. At certain ages even more than girls. And an abused boy could well become an abuser in the future. Sad but true
  - btilly 5y ago
    And an abused boy could well become an abuser in the future. Sad but true Are you talking sexual abuse? If so, then references please. There are a lot of ways that abuse goes down the generations. For example girls who were abused are more likely to get together with abusive men as adults. But I've encountered zero evidence that victims of pedophiles are particularly likely to become pedophiles themselves when they grow up. I have personal reasons to be interested in the topic, so I spent a lot of time at one point looking for evidence that sexually abused boys were likely to become sexual abusers as adults. I have concluded that such evidence both doesn't exist, and it isn't true. Had I known that when I was younger, I could have avoided a whole lot of guilt and self-hatred.
    - swagcombinator 5y ago
      I just did some research. To me I always hear pedophiles themselves admitting that they were abused when they were children. for example here https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/72050039.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/72050039.pdf https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2082860/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2082860/ but both of the studies says that the self reports are questionable.
      - btilly 5y ago
        Yes, those self-reports are very highly questionable. First of all, we all rework our childhood memories to better fit our adult personas. Depressed people talk about all of the terrible things that happened to them as kids which make them depressed now. Happy people, all of the happy things that happened that make them happy now. A gay man might talk about wearing dresses and playing with dolls that made him gay. But attempts to corroborate current stories with past events (the gold standard being longitudinal studies) find that none of that is true. Happy and depressed people have the usual mix of happy and sad childhood events, they just remember them selectively. The gay man's twin brother says maybe he wore a dress once, and has made a mountain out of a molehill. And so on. Pedophiles are even worse. Pedophiles have the problem that they fall in love with children, and have to gaslight themselves into believing that they do no harm by having sex with the child. Under this pressure, pedophiles make up memories out of whole cloth. However in general, we have not found any correlation between what actually happened to you before puberty, and who you wind up sexually attracted to after. We can't predict whether you'll be straight. Whether you'll be gay. Or whether you'll be a pedophile. Which means that if you were the unfortunate target of a pedophile, there is no particular reason to believe that have anything other than the 1% risk that every boy does of growing up into one.
- epicureanideal 5y ago
  Boys and men are constantly taught to be kind and protective toward women and even deferential to their wants. Just because there might be a small percent of men who have psychological disorders or otherwise don't behave properly doesn't mean that 95%+ of men don't have GOOD character, whether or not that comes from education. But I think we should also be teaching boys and men how not to be victims. Both sexes can be abusers, and we spend almost no time teaching boys and men how to recognize and escape abusive situations.
globular-toast 5y ago
Agreed. I can't believe a woman would be naïve enough to share a room with a man. For crying out loud, if a man invites you to a room with him alone he wants to have sex. It's that simple. I think boys already are told what is acceptable and what isn't. We got taught, in no uncertain terms, what would be considered rape or sexual assault. But I think people are afraid to mention the obvious when it comes to things like putting yourself in uncomfortable situations. I predict this comment will be downvoted, so let me anticipate your objections. I had my bike stolen last week. I left it somewhere unlocked. This is considered my fault. Now you could say, no, it's not my fault, it's the bastard who stole it. And, sure, you'd be right. But the fact is I don't have a bike right now. Lock up your bike.
- Accacin 5y ago
  I'm not sure if I'm different or not, but I've shared a room alone with female friends on multiple occasions (when younger) with literally nothing happening even when we shared a bed. Obviously, we were long time friends and this would be different if I was meeting a conference speaker, but as usual, nothing is as black or white as "men only want sex". However, I do agree with your point. Boys need to be taught what could be considered rape, and girls need to realise that sadly some men will abuse them sexually if given half a chance.
  - globular-toast 5y ago
    I've walked down the street before and not stolen things from people's houses. I assume you leave your front door unlocked at night?
  - moyasari 5y ago
    Still dumb. We've known for thousands of years not to let non-married couples be alone together, let alone sleep in the same bed.
- Zelphyr 5y ago
  > I think boys already are told what is acceptable and what isn't. Maybe things have changed since I was young but, that may be overly generous. The kind of discussion I'm suggesting never happened with me, or, if it did, it happened only once. My parents left me to figure that out on my own. I don't want this to sound like I'm attacking my parents because I'm not. I had great parents, but the topic of sexual behavior was obviously something they weren't comfortable having with me at the time. Thinking back on conversations I've had with pretty much all of my male friends, they had the same experience.
clcaev 5y ago
I also think we can build better communities by ensuring people are in safe situations, especially when traveling or when they are in an unfamiliar environment. This is especially true of young adults who have yet to experience predators.
DoreenMichele 5y ago
we parents need to get better had having conversations with our children around sex. I'm a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. I thought long and hard about this and decided that talking to my children about the existence of sexual predators would rob them of their innocence. I've studied how this works. Sexual predation almost never starts with rape. It starts with myriad instances of boundary violation and disrespect and culminates in rape. Rape hinges on the detail of consent. As a society trying to combat this issue, we seem to overlook that for the most part. I taught my children that hugs and kisses required consent. I taught that from birth. Even a baby too young to talk can turn their face away because they don't want a kiss or hold their arms up enthusiastically to receive affection. When they were older, I told them if they told someone "no" and their decision was not respected, come get me. I only had one of them come get me once. The person who felt entitled to get "sugar" from my child was utterly shocked that I told them they were wrong. This was an elderly female relative. My children are both boys. Most likely, she wasn't actually a child molester, but this practice of adults demanding hugs and kisses from children who have no right to say "no" is commonplace and gets treated as something funny in movies. I treated it as no laughing matter. If you want children to understand consent and respect, the best thing to do is let them experience it firsthand from birth. And make sure they know that rule is a two-way street, not a one-sided privilege.
- sweetheart 5y ago
  DoreenMichele coming in as a strong contender for Parent of the Year 2021. You rule.
- tylerscott 5y ago
  Thank you for sharing this! We've also taught a similar one in "your body, your choice." I can confirm some folks look at us sideways when we agree with our kids choice to not hug or kiss. If there is one thing I'd want my kids to know it is how to establish and confidently hold a boundary.
- sixstringtheory 5y ago
  My wife told me something a while back about how girls are often taught from a young age to be "sweet" and to defer to adults who demand their affection. I can't remember if it's something she read or came to herself upon examination of her youth. I can see the way that this idea on boundaries can grow to adulthood to having difficulty strongly advocating for oneself. The philosophies you laid out resonate strongly with me, and as a first-time parent expecting a daughter soon, I hope I can correctly instill them in her. Did you ever deal with an instance where your kids started telling you "no" in response to demands you felt were reasonable, twisting your original explanations to use against you, for things like eating, cleaning up or hygiene? How did you reconcile the difference?
zozbot234 5y ago
These events are just as much about alcohol, misplaced trust in strangers, personally unsafe arrangements (sharing an AirBnb with an unfamiliar person), grossly disproportionate social influence etc. etc. as they are about "sex". In fact, even the sex the OP talks about was clearly coerced. We should stop treating "tell folks not to have 'unacceptable' sex" as if it's a foolproof solution to all social problems. It just isn't.
stephc_int13 5y ago
This is not an education or even an inherently sexual issue. In case you didn't notice, there is a pattern, very often, the aggressor is in a relative position of power. People with power feel free to abuse people with less power, simply because they've learned that most of the time they can get away with it.
gher-shyu3i 5y ago
> we parents need to get better had having conversations with our children around sex. Exactly. The conclusion is simple, yet challenging to implement: don't have sex outside of marriage. For girls and women: don't have casual relationships with men. Problem solved.
- orestarod 5y ago
  Marriage has nothing to do with it. It's just legal binding to unite the possessions and caretaking of the children. Abuse still happens, more often than not, in marriages, including rape. Unless you comment was sarcastic, your point is clearly proven wrong by and large.
  - gher-shyu3i 5y ago
    > Marriage has nothing to do with it Of course it does. Marriage means responsibilities and protects rights, and no one night stands. Just because abuse happens in some marriages does not mean that we should leave sexual relationships to happen adhoc. Limiting sexual relationships to contracts (marriage, not prostitution) is the solution that has worked forever basically. The widespread of STDs, not to mention children out of wedlock, not to mention the mental tolls that come out of easy relationships is already documented, and the society is paying the price. The incident in very article you're replying to would have been avoided had there been no casual interaction with the man, let alone sleeping with him in the same room. > your point is clearly proven wrong by and large. Quite the contrary. We're already seeing the effects on conservative societies that have "westernized", and normalized sex outside of marriage. The effects have been catastrophic to say the least at every level: mental, societal, familial, health, financial. The society in its entirety is paying the toll.
    - orestarod 5y ago
      By what metric has the solution worked? The number of kids produced? What your logic straight dictates is that the solution to our freedom and dignity being stolen is to not have freedom and dignity in the first place. You speak of mental toll. Do you understand the mental toll of being locked with your abuser in the same house and your abuser also having the support of the "society"? The mental toll of being devoid of any alternatives in the first place? The toll of being degraded and considered inferior and subservient to the other half of the population? Do you understand how much society pays because kids are grown up in such environments? You speak of "Westernization" as if treating women as humans is a strange new counter-society idea. You got it backwards honey. Islam placing women below men and denying the freedoms and dignity of a human being, with the seal of approval of allah himself, with a small a, is the abnormal and perverse thing in human civilization. You ask why I assume you are a Muslim? Only a Muslim would write such hateful things towards women. Even the misogynists of the other places and religions would not be able to write the things you did with a straight face and with such confidence. May Islam die so that women can live.
diehunde 5y ago
I know it's probably not your intention, but you are shifting the blame from Jon to Yifan's parents. I hope this doesn't stay as the first comment in this thread.
- Zelphyr 5y ago
  It wasn't my intention nor do I believe that's what I'm doing. I'm simply using this event to highlight to other current and future parents like myself that we need to overcome our discomfort with discussing sex with our children so that we can provide them with tools should they ever find themselves in similar situations. I posit that her parents hadn't had those conversations, but I'm also not blaming them in any way if they hadn't, nor am I try to shift blame away from or to anyone. That is why I was explicit in my request that people not put words in my mouth or read between the lines.
  - diehunde 5y ago
    Asking for that doesn't take away the fact you decided to focus on how the victim's parents could have prevented that instead of focusing on the crime itself. It's an indirect way of blaming the victim instead of the accuser. We see this all the time when women get killed and someone says "we have to tell people it's not safe to go around alone at night". First, let's try to fix the real issue and then we can focus on stuff like that. And again, I know it wasn't your intention, but sometimes the impact is more important that the intention and this is still the first comment in the thread. People come, read this and then the idea of parents educating their kids lingers instead of how to stop predatory behavior from men.
    - Zelphyr 5y ago
      If you want to suggest this wasn't the forum to bring up the topic of parents discussing sexual situations with their children then, fine, I'll concede to that. I believe the subjects of parents educating their children can coincide with how to stop predatory behavior, but I'm willing to accept the desire to discuss them separately. However, to suggest I'm blaming the victim is the epitome of putting words in my mouth and I soundly reject that suggestion as nothing short of offensive. I have done no such thing, nor would I ever. I respectfully ask that you retract any such suggestion.
permo-w 5y ago
Both genders should be taught both sides of the situation This isn’t to play down the experiences of women at all, but it can be easy to forget that this happens to men too Given the current culture, it can be even harder for men to come forward with their stories, and even less likely for them to be believed As a plus, I think making sure to teach boys what is and isn’t acceptable to happen to them could help to teach them how to treat others I think that otherwise, if it’s “don’t rape” for boys, and “don’t let people rape you” for girls, then it’s almost like marking each gender out solely as potential abusers and potential victims, which surely couldn’t be a good thing

faitswulff 5y ago

+1 but especially our boys. Girls and women already learn so much about how to avoid being harmed by men. It’s time for our boys to learn how to become kind men - and for those of us who are men to model that for them.

analognoise 5y ago
Doesn't this remove agency from women? If two adults get together, fly together, get a room together, drink wine together, have relations... Then we're supposed to say that consent can't be given because the woman is drunk. But they're both drunk. Isn't it essentially the patriarchy to say that a woman can't make that choice? Like if they're equals and they're both drunk, why do we blame the men? Because they aren't really equals? Isn't that what we're fighting against? We blame the men for not ignoring the wishes of the woman while drunk. It's a little bit chauvinistic to think the men know better isn't it?
- krapp 5y ago
  No, why on earth would it?
  - analognoise 5y ago
    It seems like everyone is equal, until everyone is drunk, then the women need to be treated like children and protected. Which is the very thing feminism was fighting AGAINST - having men make decisions for you. Then we blame men, say they need to do better. That seems ridiculous.
    - sweetheart 5y ago
      > then the women need to be treated like children and protected. Mate, no. This applies to men, women, nonbinary folks, non-human animals, etc. Literally any living thing. If you don't consent, anyone having sex with you is wrong. It's wrong if a man tries to have sex with a drunk, non-consenting person, and it's wrong if a women tries to have sex with a drunk, non-consenting person. This is the _opposite_ of making a decision for someone. It's recognizing that they kind of _can't_ make a decision, so you simply do nothing.
      - analognoise 5y ago
        ...so why is the part about them drinking in the story? They were consenting adults, both well within their senses? Or was she like unconscious and he's an absolute monster?
      - JamesBarney 5y ago
        By non-consenting do you mean says no or didn't say yes?
        sweetheart 5y ago
        They are the same.
    - 5y ago
throway98752343 5y ago
Boys should be educated, but this will still happen. I cannot believe this guy doesn't know that what he's doing is wrong. We should identify and mitigate high potential threats by public warning, ostracism or legal action. Overcorrect if necessary.
- eecc 5y ago
  > Overcorrect if necessary. Hell no, that’s what all our legal systems are not about and there are also provisions against this sort of zealotry. And rightly so, it’s such a historically proven road to hell and unintended consequences.
suifbwish 5y ago
Are you implying that rape occurs because someone’s parents didn’t tell them not to or that they would not rape if their parents HAD told them not to do it?
- Zelphyr 5y ago
  Please don't put words in other people's mouths either. I think it's clear from GP's post that that's NOT what they were implying.
  - suifbwish 5y ago
    Then can you explain how “it’s time to teach our boys to become kind men” is relevant to the original discussion?
    - Zelphyr 5y ago
      "Son, I want to talk to you about something. You're getting older and obviously you're interested in sex. Being sexual is a healthy and normal part of being human. Know that I support you if you are gay, straight, non-binary, binary, etc... I love you because you are you and that will never change. As your father, it is important to me that you are a kind and caring person. Kindness comes in many forms, many of which are obvious. Such as lending your arm to an elderly woman trying cross a busy, snow-covered street, for example. Kindness is also being generous to and patient with your partner before, during, and after sex. It is being aware of their needs and desires as well as what they don't like. To that end; nobody, and I mean nobody, should be forced to have sex. If your partner doesn't clearly consent to having sex with you then it is forced. To do otherwise is an act of violence--the opposite of kindness. If you are unsure about whether your partner wants to have sex then they don't. It is my sincerest hope that one day you find someone who you will fall in love with and who will fall in love with you. When you do, you will find that kindness plays an important role in that. Because sometimes that person will treat you poorly. They will be angry, short, and disrespectful to you. And you will do the same to them. That is part of being in a healthy relationship. It's unpleasant but it's how we grow. One thing I have learned in the years spent with your mother is that returning such anger and disrespect with kindness goes a long way towards developing a deep and lasting bond with one another. Know that I am always available to you if you have any questions about sex, or any other subject for that matter. I know it's uncomfortable to talk about this right now. It is for me too. But it will get easier the more we talk about it so come to me anytime you feel you need to."
elzbardico 5y ago
Not to mention that boys, small boys in particular are frequent targets of abuse. At certain ages even more than girls. And an abused boy could well become an abuser in the future. Sad but true
- btilly 5y ago
  And an abused boy could well become an abuser in the future. Sad but true Are you talking sexual abuse? If so, then references please. There are a lot of ways that abuse goes down the generations. For example girls who were abused are more likely to get together with abusive men as adults. But I've encountered zero evidence that victims of pedophiles are particularly likely to become pedophiles themselves when they grow up. I have personal reasons to be interested in the topic, so I spent a lot of time at one point looking for evidence that sexually abused boys were likely to become sexual abusers as adults. I have concluded that such evidence both doesn't exist, and it isn't true. Had I known that when I was younger, I could have avoided a whole lot of guilt and self-hatred.
  - swagcombinator 5y ago
    I just did some research. To me I always hear pedophiles themselves admitting that they were abused when they were children. for example here https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/72050039.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/72050039.pdf https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2082860/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2082860/ but both of the studies says that the self reports are questionable.
    - btilly 5y ago
      Yes, those self-reports are very highly questionable. First of all, we all rework our childhood memories to better fit our adult personas. Depressed people talk about all of the terrible things that happened to them as kids which make them depressed now. Happy people, all of the happy things that happened that make them happy now. A gay man might talk about wearing dresses and playing with dolls that made him gay. But attempts to corroborate current stories with past events (the gold standard being longitudinal studies) find that none of that is true. Happy and depressed people have the usual mix of happy and sad childhood events, they just remember them selectively. The gay man's twin brother says maybe he wore a dress once, and has made a mountain out of a molehill. And so on. Pedophiles are even worse. Pedophiles have the problem that they fall in love with children, and have to gaslight themselves into believing that they do no harm by having sex with the child. Under this pressure, pedophiles make up memories out of whole cloth. However in general, we have not found any correlation between what actually happened to you before puberty, and who you wind up sexually attracted to after. We can't predict whether you'll be straight. Whether you'll be gay. Or whether you'll be a pedophile. Which means that if you were the unfortunate target of a pedophile, there is no particular reason to believe that have anything other than the 1% risk that every boy does of growing up into one.
epicureanideal 5y ago
Boys and men are constantly taught to be kind and protective toward women and even deferential to their wants. Just because there might be a small percent of men who have psychological disorders or otherwise don't behave properly doesn't mean that 95%+ of men don't have GOOD character, whether or not that comes from education. But I think we should also be teaching boys and men how not to be victims. Both sexes can be abusers, and we spend almost no time teaching boys and men how to recognize and escape abusive situations.

globular-toast 5y ago

Agreed. I can't believe a woman would be naïve enough to share a room with a man. For crying out loud, if a man invites you to a room with him alone he wants to have sex. It's that simple. I think boys already are told what is acceptable and what isn't. We got taught, in no uncertain terms, what would be considered rape or sexual assault. But I think people are afraid to mention the obvious when it comes to things like putting yourself in uncomfortable situations. I predict this comment will be downvoted, so let me anticipate your objections. I had my bike stolen last week. I left it somewhere unlocked. This is considered my fault. Now you could say, no, it's not my fault, it's the bastard who stole it. And, sure, you'd be right. But the fact is I don't have a bike right now. Lock up your bike.

Accacin 5y ago
I'm not sure if I'm different or not, but I've shared a room alone with female friends on multiple occasions (when younger) with literally nothing happening even when we shared a bed. Obviously, we were long time friends and this would be different if I was meeting a conference speaker, but as usual, nothing is as black or white as "men only want sex". However, I do agree with your point. Boys need to be taught what could be considered rape, and girls need to realise that sadly some men will abuse them sexually if given half a chance.
- globular-toast 5y ago
  I've walked down the street before and not stolen things from people's houses. I assume you leave your front door unlocked at night?
- moyasari 5y ago
  Still dumb. We've known for thousands of years not to let non-married couples be alone together, let alone sleep in the same bed.
Zelphyr 5y ago
> I think boys already are told what is acceptable and what isn't. Maybe things have changed since I was young but, that may be overly generous. The kind of discussion I'm suggesting never happened with me, or, if it did, it happened only once. My parents left me to figure that out on my own. I don't want this to sound like I'm attacking my parents because I'm not. I had great parents, but the topic of sexual behavior was obviously something they weren't comfortable having with me at the time. Thinking back on conversations I've had with pretty much all of my male friends, they had the same experience.

clcaev 5y ago

I also think we can build better communities by ensuring people are in safe situations, especially when traveling or when they are in an unfamiliar environment. This is especially true of young adults who have yet to experience predators.

DoreenMichele 5y ago

we parents need to get better had having conversations with our children around sex. I'm a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. I thought long and hard about this and decided that talking to my children about the existence of sexual predators would rob them of their innocence. I've studied how this works. Sexual predation almost never starts with rape. It starts with myriad instances of boundary violation and disrespect and culminates in rape. Rape hinges on the detail of consent. As a society trying to combat this issue, we seem to overlook that for the most part. I taught my children that hugs and kisses required consent. I taught that from birth. Even a baby too young to talk can turn their face away because they don't want a kiss or hold their arms up enthusiastically to receive affection. When they were older, I told them if they told someone "no" and their decision was not respected, come get me. I only had one of them come get me once. The person who felt entitled to get "sugar" from my child was utterly shocked that I told them they were wrong. This was an elderly female relative. My children are both boys. Most likely, she wasn't actually a child molester, but this practice of adults demanding hugs and kisses from children who have no right to say "no" is commonplace and gets treated as something funny in movies. I treated it as no laughing matter. If you want children to understand consent and respect, the best thing to do is let them experience it firsthand from birth. And make sure they know that rule is a two-way street, not a one-sided privilege.

sweetheart 5y ago
DoreenMichele coming in as a strong contender for Parent of the Year 2021. You rule.
tylerscott 5y ago
Thank you for sharing this! We've also taught a similar one in "your body, your choice." I can confirm some folks look at us sideways when we agree with our kids choice to not hug or kiss. If there is one thing I'd want my kids to know it is how to establish and confidently hold a boundary.
sixstringtheory 5y ago
My wife told me something a while back about how girls are often taught from a young age to be "sweet" and to defer to adults who demand their affection. I can't remember if it's something she read or came to herself upon examination of her youth. I can see the way that this idea on boundaries can grow to adulthood to having difficulty strongly advocating for oneself. The philosophies you laid out resonate strongly with me, and as a first-time parent expecting a daughter soon, I hope I can correctly instill them in her. Did you ever deal with an instance where your kids started telling you "no" in response to demands you felt were reasonable, twisting your original explanations to use against you, for things like eating, cleaning up or hygiene? How did you reconcile the difference?

zozbot234 5y ago

These events are just as much about alcohol, misplaced trust in strangers, personally unsafe arrangements (sharing an AirBnb with an unfamiliar person), grossly disproportionate social influence etc. etc. as they are about "sex". In fact, even the sex the OP talks about was clearly coerced. We should stop treating "tell folks not to have 'unacceptable' sex" as if it's a foolproof solution to all social problems. It just isn't.

stephc_int13 5y ago

This is not an education or even an inherently sexual issue. In case you didn't notice, there is a pattern, very often, the aggressor is in a relative position of power. People with power feel free to abuse people with less power, simply because they've learned that most of the time they can get away with it.

gher-shyu3i 5y ago

> we parents need to get better had having conversations with our children around sex. Exactly. The conclusion is simple, yet challenging to implement: don't have sex outside of marriage. For girls and women: don't have casual relationships with men. Problem solved.

orestarod 5y ago
Marriage has nothing to do with it. It's just legal binding to unite the possessions and caretaking of the children. Abuse still happens, more often than not, in marriages, including rape. Unless you comment was sarcastic, your point is clearly proven wrong by and large.
- gher-shyu3i 5y ago
  > Marriage has nothing to do with it Of course it does. Marriage means responsibilities and protects rights, and no one night stands. Just because abuse happens in some marriages does not mean that we should leave sexual relationships to happen adhoc. Limiting sexual relationships to contracts (marriage, not prostitution) is the solution that has worked forever basically. The widespread of STDs, not to mention children out of wedlock, not to mention the mental tolls that come out of easy relationships is already documented, and the society is paying the price. The incident in very article you're replying to would have been avoided had there been no casual interaction with the man, let alone sleeping with him in the same room. > your point is clearly proven wrong by and large. Quite the contrary. We're already seeing the effects on conservative societies that have "westernized", and normalized sex outside of marriage. The effects have been catastrophic to say the least at every level: mental, societal, familial, health, financial. The society in its entirety is paying the toll.
  - orestarod 5y ago
    By what metric has the solution worked? The number of kids produced? What your logic straight dictates is that the solution to our freedom and dignity being stolen is to not have freedom and dignity in the first place. You speak of mental toll. Do you understand the mental toll of being locked with your abuser in the same house and your abuser also having the support of the "society"? The mental toll of being devoid of any alternatives in the first place? The toll of being degraded and considered inferior and subservient to the other half of the population? Do you understand how much society pays because kids are grown up in such environments? You speak of "Westernization" as if treating women as humans is a strange new counter-society idea. You got it backwards honey. Islam placing women below men and denying the freedoms and dignity of a human being, with the seal of approval of allah himself, with a small a, is the abnormal and perverse thing in human civilization. You ask why I assume you are a Muslim? Only a Muslim would write such hateful things towards women. Even the misogynists of the other places and religions would not be able to write the things you did with a straight face and with such confidence. May Islam die so that women can live.

diehunde 5y ago

I know it's probably not your intention, but you are shifting the blame from Jon to Yifan's parents. I hope this doesn't stay as the first comment in this thread.

Zelphyr 5y ago
It wasn't my intention nor do I believe that's what I'm doing. I'm simply using this event to highlight to other current and future parents like myself that we need to overcome our discomfort with discussing sex with our children so that we can provide them with tools should they ever find themselves in similar situations. I posit that her parents hadn't had those conversations, but I'm also not blaming them in any way if they hadn't, nor am I try to shift blame away from or to anyone. That is why I was explicit in my request that people not put words in my mouth or read between the lines.
- diehunde 5y ago
  Asking for that doesn't take away the fact you decided to focus on how the victim's parents could have prevented that instead of focusing on the crime itself. It's an indirect way of blaming the victim instead of the accuser. We see this all the time when women get killed and someone says "we have to tell people it's not safe to go around alone at night". First, let's try to fix the real issue and then we can focus on stuff like that. And again, I know it wasn't your intention, but sometimes the impact is more important that the intention and this is still the first comment in the thread. People come, read this and then the idea of parents educating their kids lingers instead of how to stop predatory behavior from men.
  - Zelphyr 5y ago
    If you want to suggest this wasn't the forum to bring up the topic of parents discussing sexual situations with their children then, fine, I'll concede to that. I believe the subjects of parents educating their children can coincide with how to stop predatory behavior, but I'm willing to accept the desire to discuss them separately. However, to suggest I'm blaming the victim is the epitome of putting words in my mouth and I soundly reject that suggestion as nothing short of offensive. I have done no such thing, nor would I ever. I respectfully ask that you retract any such suggestion.

permo-w 5y ago

Both genders should be taught both sides of the situation This isn’t to play down the experiences of women at all, but it can be easy to forget that this happens to men too Given the current culture, it can be even harder for men to come forward with their stories, and even less likely for them to be believed As a plus, I think making sure to teach boys what is and isn’t acceptable to happen to them could help to teach them how to treat others I think that otherwise, if it’s “don’t rape” for boys, and “don’t let people rape you” for girls, then it’s almost like marking each gender out solely as potential abusers and potential victims, which surely couldn’t be a good thing