4 ms·

> I don't want to victim blame here ... but does the victim bear some responsibility? The answer to your question is no. The victim bears no responsibility. Th

> I don't want to victim blame here ... but does the victim bear some responsibility? The answer to your question is no. The victim bears no responsibility. The abuser took advantage of someone, who bears no fault for the result. There's no "well, both parties were in the wrong here". The abuser should not have abused the other party, no matter how vulnerable the other party made themselves. You specifically said you didn't want to victim blame, then immediately blamed the victim.

eloff 5y ago
And what if they were consenting - I'm not saying that's the case here, I don't know obviously, I'm asking in general, just like my comment is a musing about the vagaries of when is consent not consent.
- Pfhreak 5y ago
  It's not vague. Consent is an enthusiastic and unambiguous yes. Was there an enthusiastic and unambiguous yes? You have consent. Was there not an enthusiastic and unambiguous yes? You do not have consent.
  - eloff 5y ago
    I think we can agree on that. I'm not arguing about what consent is, I'm arguing about whether you bear responsibility for what happens to you if you put yourself in a vulnerable position, give consent without being of sound mind, and then regret it later. I think 1) that's pretty dumb to put yourself in that situation, and 2) you do have partial responsibility for what happened.
    - Pfhreak 5y ago
      Sure, but do you believe that's what's described here? I don't see anything that suggests that consent was ever given.
      - eloff 5y ago
        I'm pretty sure I wrote that I don't know what the facts are here and that I'm inclined to side with her. I'm asking about this situation in general, not about her specific case.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    >enthusiastic and unambiguous <rolls eyes> By redefining consent you've just redefined rape to include some large percentage of people in stable relationships. If everyone's a rapist nobody is.
    - Pfhreak 5y ago
      If you are having sex and your partner isn't unambiguously interested, you need to ask yourself some questions. Also, people in stable relationships can have non consensual sex. It was legal to rape your wife until like the 90s in parts of the states.
      - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        People have agency. They're allowed to choose, of their own free will, to do things they aren't 100% on board with. That includes sex. Blowing your husband because it wastes less of your time then him trying to woo you or popping a Viagra because your wife is hitting the bong and you know what she's gonna want next aren't ideal but they're facts of some peoples lives. There's no way you can honestly allege those sorts of things are rape. So how do you justify your redefinition of consent?
        Pfhreak 5y ago
        Those folks who are not interested can say, "Nah." and if their partner presses the issue that's definitely problematic. A signal of "I'm not interested" should be the end of discussion, there are plenty of tools for folks whose partners aren't in the mood. That said, there are many folks who aren't enthusiastic about the act itself, but have enthusiasm for the outcome. Many asexual folks I know, for instance, are enthusiastic that they can do something that makes their partners happy, even while not particularly enjoying the act. You are interpreting my definition in only the narrowest possible lens.

eloff 5y ago

And what if they were consenting - I'm not saying that's the case here, I don't know obviously, I'm asking in general, just like my comment is a musing about the vagaries of when is consent not consent.

Pfhreak 5y ago
It's not vague. Consent is an enthusiastic and unambiguous yes. Was there an enthusiastic and unambiguous yes? You have consent. Was there not an enthusiastic and unambiguous yes? You do not have consent.
- eloff 5y ago
  I think we can agree on that. I'm not arguing about what consent is, I'm arguing about whether you bear responsibility for what happens to you if you put yourself in a vulnerable position, give consent without being of sound mind, and then regret it later. I think 1) that's pretty dumb to put yourself in that situation, and 2) you do have partial responsibility for what happened.
  - Pfhreak 5y ago
    Sure, but do you believe that's what's described here? I don't see anything that suggests that consent was ever given.
    - eloff 5y ago
      I'm pretty sure I wrote that I don't know what the facts are here and that I'm inclined to side with her. I'm asking about this situation in general, not about her specific case.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  >enthusiastic and unambiguous <rolls eyes> By redefining consent you've just redefined rape to include some large percentage of people in stable relationships. If everyone's a rapist nobody is.
  - Pfhreak 5y ago
    If you are having sex and your partner isn't unambiguously interested, you need to ask yourself some questions. Also, people in stable relationships can have non consensual sex. It was legal to rape your wife until like the 90s in parts of the states.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      People have agency. They're allowed to choose, of their own free will, to do things they aren't 100% on board with. That includes sex. Blowing your husband because it wastes less of your time then him trying to woo you or popping a Viagra because your wife is hitting the bong and you know what she's gonna want next aren't ideal but they're facts of some peoples lives. There's no way you can honestly allege those sorts of things are rape. So how do you justify your redefinition of consent?
      - Pfhreak 5y ago
        Those folks who are not interested can say, "Nah." and if their partner presses the issue that's definitely problematic. A signal of "I'm not interested" should be the end of discussion, there are plenty of tools for folks whose partners aren't in the mood. That said, there are many folks who aren't enthusiastic about the act itself, but have enthusiasm for the outcome. Many asexual folks I know, for instance, are enthusiastic that they can do something that makes their partners happy, even while not particularly enjoying the act. You are interpreting my definition in only the narrowest possible lens.