6 ms·

I've always wondered with things like this, could it be possible to make all interaction "text-based" until final stage? Specifically for hiring: What if appl

by howeyc 5y ago

I've always wondered with things like this, could it be possible to make all interaction "text-based" until final stage? Specifically for hiring: What if applicants submitted resumes, but the name and school they attended are replaced with numbers. Then throughout the interview process all interactions were text-based and they were addressed by this number. Then offer/acceptance is based on merit (hopefully) and not on economic status, race, gender, etc. I admit this isn't exactly well thought out, just a thought I've had as a possible way to hopefully weed out any areas for bias to creep into the process.

hpoe 5y ago
Sounds like applying for a loan right now. The person at the bank puts a few numbers into a computer that ties to a big database maintained by Experian/TransUnion/Equifax/ProfessionalParasites, and then it decides if I should get a loan or not.
- vlovich123 5y ago
  Look up redlining to see how banks accomplish this even when they're legally supposed to be blind.
fighterpilot 5y ago
I like that but race and gender blind admissions will lead to a huge number of East Asian males which won't be tolerated.
- booleandilemma 5y ago
  Why would it lead to a huge number of East Asian males?
  - fighterpilot 5y ago
    Universities use an unblinded selection process as a way to intentionally handicap East Asians (and to a slightly lesser extent, white people). Their proportion in enrolment has been trending down steadily over time and has converged to be nearly identical across all the top universities (except for Caltech) which suggests they're all silently colluding (by copying each others' quotas) to keep the Asian enrolment percentage at precisely the depressed X percent. Private companies don't have such explicit Asian quotas in place but the spirit of affirmative action is to handicap Asian men and white men in the interview process. Google does this by making the interview process easier for non majority groups. If you can't apply the handicap then it follows that the majority groups proportions will increase. Of course, the counter argument is that implicit bias and so on will mean the opposite will occur. But empirically that isn't what has happened in universities, and so I have no reason to expect it to happen in private hiring either.
    - tylerhou 5y ago
      > suggests they're all silently colluding (by copying each others' quotas) to keep the Asian enrolment percentage at precisely the depressed X percent. You need more evidence than a trend to claim that there is a conspiracy. And you can look the data & admissions guidelines publicly released in SFFA v. Harvard to see that there is no evidence that quotas exist. > Google does this by making the interview process easier for non majority groups. Uh, but it doesn't. Speaking as someone who has interviewed 30+ candidates at Google and been present at hiring committees, there is no "lowering of the bar" for people of certain races.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
cauliflower2718 5y ago
I wonder if there are socioeconomic indicators in writing style, too. I wouldn't be surprised if there were, even if we consider only text in which grammar and spelling are correct. (As a small example, there are ways to sound more or less like a mathematician, even when writing about topics unrelated to math.)
- booleandilemma 5y ago
  If we did decide to do hiring this way, you could be sure that there would be, even if there aren't any currently. People would try choosing their words to make them sound like they're part of the "in" group.
- intergalplan 5y ago
  Of course there are. They're easier to pick out in informal writing, of course, but even, "is capable of writing extensively in SWE without screwing up or revealing lower-class status through choice of word or idiom" is a pretty strong class marker. One can even infer gender with much better-than-even odds, though, again, it's easier the less-formal the writing. There exist computer programs that attempt that trick with fair success, too, though humans are plenty capable of it on their own. As for your example of mathematicians, and to offer a sense of how easy it can be to accidentally and innocently give these things away, something as simple as preposition use can give away a mathematician (or at least someone who's had some exposure to mathematical writing and usage). Consider: "over", and "in", for example, and also seemingly-innocent usage like the transitive verb "having", in a revealing context. See the commas after the closing quotation marks, in that second paragraph? If I'm American, and not obviously-deficient in the rest of my writing, that's a fairly reliable signal that I'm a programmer.
- Mvandenbergh 5y ago
  The more formal education someone has, the less their writing will reflect these origins. Spoken language has both an accent and a sociolect (dialect associated with a social class). I don't think there's a writing equivalent of accent that is associated with a social class. Consider that people will do all of their writing in an educational or formal context. I.e. nobody grows up writing to their parents, siblings, and neighbourhood kids in a particular sociolect the way they do with speaking. Many people who speak with not just the accent but also the sociolect of a particular class group will nonetheless write in a way that only really reflects their education since that is the context where they have done most of their writing. There are definitely stylistic tics that reflect certain ways of thinking. Someone who describes an idea as a "first order approximation" which is "correct to an order of magnitude" reveals that they have come from a particular way of thinking about the world. I'm not sure how may social class related style "tells" would make it into someone's written communication though. Especially task-related communication during a hiring process. Unlike accent which is always on, particular sociolect may only be deployed in a particular context. It is often pretty easy to tell writing, even if grammatically correct, which comes from someone who is not highly educated and doesn't used writing as a main method of communication. They tend to ramble and their writing reads like a transcript. I used to follow the legal advice subreddits and often the people with the most complex and troubling problems would describe them in this wildly digressive way where right in the middle of a paragraph about something that X had done to Y we're suddenly treated to completely irrelevant details about Y's sister of X's uncle. Again though, this only shows up in the writing of someone who hasn't had a lot of education. Someone from a humble background but a lot of practice writing may have an obvious accent while writing like any other educated professional. Unlike accents which are almost indelible.
hellbannedguy 5y ago
I have wished for a system like this forever. I have no qualms over a test. We all need to take tests. Give all applicants a few written tests on the job they are hiring for. The people who do well on the test are given the job on a probationary basis. I might even exclude references, and schooling?
- rsa25519 5y ago
  > The people who do well on the test are given the job on a probationary basis. This sounds terrible. Not everyone can take tests well (even if they strongly understand the content), and few people can afford to accept a job that's probationary.
  - njarboe 5y ago
    In the US at least, at-will employment means that all jobs are "probationary".
  - Enginerrrd 5y ago
    I've met plenty of average people / mediocre performers that probably test worse than their other performance, but I've never met an exceptional performer that was a poor tester. I have met some exceptional testers that were poor performers due to personality issues. Tests have issues, but in general, the statement: "if you're a "bad tester" you're not an excellent performer" is pretty true. The caveat being that, IMO, most of the time, institutions are using the wrong test.
noahtallen 5y ago
Interestingly, Automattic (where I work) is completely text-based throughout the entire hiring process for many roles. The first interview is via Slack, the code test and trial stages are via pull requests, slack, and p2. It’s great because day-to-day work uses these async tools rather than calls. So it’s more accurate anyways.
throwawayboise 5y ago
Because (admittedly an extreme example) if I'm hiring for a public-facing position, I don't want to get someone with pink and blue hair, excessive piercings and poor hygiene even if they're smart and capable of performing the job function otherwise. In at least some cases, presenting and conducting yourself as a "normal" person is important.
- BlackFly 5y ago
  I thought this frame of mind was slowly disappearing in the millenial and later generations. From my personal perspective, if I see a person like you have described at your front desk, I am much more likely to think you are a company that cares about people more than just the bottom line. Seriously my first impression of such a person is, "Oh, this company clearly hires based on skills instead of just looks." My expectations are typically that the person will be quite adept.

by howeyc 5y ago

hpoe 5y ago

Sounds like applying for a loan right now. The person at the bank puts a few numbers into a computer that ties to a big database maintained by Experian/TransUnion/Equifax/ProfessionalParasites, and then it decides if I should get a loan or not.

vlovich123 5y ago
Look up redlining to see how banks accomplish this even when they're legally supposed to be blind.

fighterpilot 5y ago

I like that but race and gender blind admissions will lead to a huge number of East Asian males which won't be tolerated.

booleandilemma 5y ago
Why would it lead to a huge number of East Asian males?
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  Universities use an unblinded selection process as a way to intentionally handicap East Asians (and to a slightly lesser extent, white people). Their proportion in enrolment has been trending down steadily over time and has converged to be nearly identical across all the top universities (except for Caltech) which suggests they're all silently colluding (by copying each others' quotas) to keep the Asian enrolment percentage at precisely the depressed X percent. Private companies don't have such explicit Asian quotas in place but the spirit of affirmative action is to handicap Asian men and white men in the interview process. Google does this by making the interview process easier for non majority groups. If you can't apply the handicap then it follows that the majority groups proportions will increase. Of course, the counter argument is that implicit bias and so on will mean the opposite will occur. But empirically that isn't what has happened in universities, and so I have no reason to expect it to happen in private hiring either.
  - tylerhou 5y ago
    > suggests they're all silently colluding (by copying each others' quotas) to keep the Asian enrolment percentage at precisely the depressed X percent. You need more evidence than a trend to claim that there is a conspiracy. And you can look the data & admissions guidelines publicly released in SFFA v. Harvard to see that there is no evidence that quotas exist. > Google does this by making the interview process easier for non majority groups. Uh, but it doesn't. Speaking as someone who has interviewed 30+ candidates at Google and been present at hiring committees, there is no "lowering of the bar" for people of certain races.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]

cauliflower2718 5y ago

I wonder if there are socioeconomic indicators in writing style, too. I wouldn't be surprised if there were, even if we consider only text in which grammar and spelling are correct. (As a small example, there are ways to sound more or less like a mathematician, even when writing about topics unrelated to math.)

booleandilemma 5y ago
If we did decide to do hiring this way, you could be sure that there would be, even if there aren't any currently. People would try choosing their words to make them sound like they're part of the "in" group.
intergalplan 5y ago
Of course there are. They're easier to pick out in informal writing, of course, but even, "is capable of writing extensively in SWE without screwing up or revealing lower-class status through choice of word or idiom" is a pretty strong class marker. One can even infer gender with much better-than-even odds, though, again, it's easier the less-formal the writing. There exist computer programs that attempt that trick with fair success, too, though humans are plenty capable of it on their own. As for your example of mathematicians, and to offer a sense of how easy it can be to accidentally and innocently give these things away, something as simple as preposition use can give away a mathematician (or at least someone who's had some exposure to mathematical writing and usage). Consider: "over", and "in", for example, and also seemingly-innocent usage like the transitive verb "having", in a revealing context. See the commas after the closing quotation marks, in that second paragraph? If I'm American, and not obviously-deficient in the rest of my writing, that's a fairly reliable signal that I'm a programmer.
Mvandenbergh 5y ago
The more formal education someone has, the less their writing will reflect these origins. Spoken language has both an accent and a sociolect (dialect associated with a social class). I don't think there's a writing equivalent of accent that is associated with a social class. Consider that people will do all of their writing in an educational or formal context. I.e. nobody grows up writing to their parents, siblings, and neighbourhood kids in a particular sociolect the way they do with speaking. Many people who speak with not just the accent but also the sociolect of a particular class group will nonetheless write in a way that only really reflects their education since that is the context where they have done most of their writing. There are definitely stylistic tics that reflect certain ways of thinking. Someone who describes an idea as a "first order approximation" which is "correct to an order of magnitude" reveals that they have come from a particular way of thinking about the world. I'm not sure how may social class related style "tells" would make it into someone's written communication though. Especially task-related communication during a hiring process. Unlike accent which is always on, particular sociolect may only be deployed in a particular context. It is often pretty easy to tell writing, even if grammatically correct, which comes from someone who is not highly educated and doesn't used writing as a main method of communication. They tend to ramble and their writing reads like a transcript. I used to follow the legal advice subreddits and often the people with the most complex and troubling problems would describe them in this wildly digressive way where right in the middle of a paragraph about something that X had done to Y we're suddenly treated to completely irrelevant details about Y's sister of X's uncle. Again though, this only shows up in the writing of someone who hasn't had a lot of education. Someone from a humble background but a lot of practice writing may have an obvious accent while writing like any other educated professional. Unlike accents which are almost indelible.

hellbannedguy 5y ago

I have wished for a system like this forever. I have no qualms over a test. We all need to take tests. Give all applicants a few written tests on the job they are hiring for. The people who do well on the test are given the job on a probationary basis. I might even exclude references, and schooling?

rsa25519 5y ago
> The people who do well on the test are given the job on a probationary basis. This sounds terrible. Not everyone can take tests well (even if they strongly understand the content), and few people can afford to accept a job that's probationary.
- njarboe 5y ago
  In the US at least, at-will employment means that all jobs are "probationary".
- Enginerrrd 5y ago
  I've met plenty of average people / mediocre performers that probably test worse than their other performance, but I've never met an exceptional performer that was a poor tester. I have met some exceptional testers that were poor performers due to personality issues. Tests have issues, but in general, the statement: "if you're a "bad tester" you're not an excellent performer" is pretty true. The caveat being that, IMO, most of the time, institutions are using the wrong test.

noahtallen 5y ago

Interestingly, Automattic (where I work) is completely text-based throughout the entire hiring process for many roles. The first interview is via Slack, the code test and trial stages are via pull requests, slack, and p2. It’s great because day-to-day work uses these async tools rather than calls. So it’s more accurate anyways.

throwawayboise 5y ago

Because (admittedly an extreme example) if I'm hiring for a public-facing position, I don't want to get someone with pink and blue hair, excessive piercings and poor hygiene even if they're smart and capable of performing the job function otherwise. In at least some cases, presenting and conducting yourself as a "normal" person is important.

BlackFly 5y ago
I thought this frame of mind was slowly disappearing in the millenial and later generations. From my personal perspective, if I see a person like you have described at your front desk, I am much more likely to think you are a company that cares about people more than just the bottom line. Seriously my first impression of such a person is, "Oh, this company clearly hires based on skills instead of just looks." My expectations are typically that the person will be quite adept.