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Yeah. I like rust but I feel like its pushed way too hard. If its really 'that good', people will slowly pick it up. I personally don't like c++, but I wouldn'

Yeah. I like rust but I feel like its pushed way too hard. If its really 'that good', people will slowly pick it up. I personally don't like c++, but I wouldn't enjoy someone going on a rust thread and shilling c++. So I won't shill rust on a c++ thread. Seems similar for Zig.

Ericson2314 5y ago
It's just shilling. OP asked for: > only fixed bugs or deprecated old features When you get right down to that, you do end up with something like Rust. E.g. C++'s move semantics are weird because for historical reasons copying is the default. Get rid of those historical reasons, and there's no reason not to do it the Rust way. 40 years of "no big breaking changes" really is a lot of cruft.
- jcelerier 5y ago
  > and there's no reason not to do it the Rust way memcpy everywhere is definitely not the best answer to every problem
  - Ericson2314 5y ago
    If you want a copy constructor, it would work like this: Copy : Clone :: Move : Relocate I.e. there would not be the presumption that everything is automatically movable or coppiable, there would be magic traits to indicate memmove / memcpy and friends, and then plain old stdlib super traits for user-defined cloning and relocating. This is the the right design for move constructors, full stop.
  - FreeFull 5y ago
    It's not like C++'s move semantics magically get rid of the necessity of copying data either.
- Ericson2314 5y ago
  I meant to write it's not just shilling.
seoaeu 5y ago
> If its really 'that good', people will slowly pick it up. Empirically, that's been happening?
tene 5y ago
As a huge fan of Rust, I am very interested in people writing comments about what C++ does for them that I'm missing in Rust. I want more C++ shilling in Rust threads, and I don't think I'm alone. Please, give me detailed examples of how you can use SFINAE or whatever to express useful misuse-resistant abstractions that can't be expressed with Rust's feature set. Please tell me about classes of bugs you can prevent in C++ that can't be similarly prevented in Rust. Or maybe C++ isn't safer, but it's more performant? Easier to use? Easier to learn? Easier to troubleshoot and debug? I agree that the Zig comment that started this sub-thread didn't contribute to the conversation. If we disagree, although I'm not sure we do, it's in that I'd rather call for higher-effort comments about the benefits of other languages instead of fewer comments about them.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  - GPGPU programing ecosystem like CUDA and SYSCL (note eco-system, not just a compiler that generates PTX code) - Game engines like Unreal and Unity - GUI frameworks like wxWidgets, Qt, MFC, WinUI - Being the language of choice to contribute anything to GCC or LLVM - Being the language of choice for the native libraries ecosystem and runtime extensions to plug into Java, .NET, nodejs. - Being the language to write drivers in macOS (IO Kit/Driver Kit), and Android alongside Java (Project Treble) - Being avaialble out of the box on macOS, iOS, Windows, Android, Playstation, XBox, Switch SDKs and respective IDE tooling So you can decide to deal with some of C++ flaws, and enjoy 40 years of history, or spend part of your application development budget into building a Rust ecosytem.
  - oblio 5y ago
    > Windows The C++ SDK is definitely not available out of the box on Windows. You have to install it (and update it manually!).
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      Only for those that chose the path of not using the OS vendor tools and don't install Visual Studio. Not only it is automatically selected in the respective workloads that depend on it being avaiable, it gets updated.

Ericson2314 5y ago

It's just shilling. OP asked for: > only fixed bugs or deprecated old features When you get right down to that, you do end up with something like Rust. E.g. C++'s move semantics are weird because for historical reasons copying is the default. Get rid of those historical reasons, and there's no reason not to do it the Rust way. 40 years of "no big breaking changes" really is a lot of cruft.

jcelerier 5y ago
> and there's no reason not to do it the Rust way memcpy everywhere is definitely not the best answer to every problem
- Ericson2314 5y ago
  If you want a copy constructor, it would work like this: Copy : Clone :: Move : Relocate I.e. there would not be the presumption that everything is automatically movable or coppiable, there would be magic traits to indicate memmove / memcpy and friends, and then plain old stdlib super traits for user-defined cloning and relocating. This is the the right design for move constructors, full stop.
- FreeFull 5y ago
  It's not like C++'s move semantics magically get rid of the necessity of copying data either.
Ericson2314 5y ago
I meant to write it's not just shilling.

seoaeu 5y ago

> If its really 'that good', people will slowly pick it up. Empirically, that's been happening?

tene 5y ago

As a huge fan of Rust, I am very interested in people writing comments about what C++ does for them that I'm missing in Rust. I want more C++ shilling in Rust threads, and I don't think I'm alone. Please, give me detailed examples of how you can use SFINAE or whatever to express useful misuse-resistant abstractions that can't be expressed with Rust's feature set. Please tell me about classes of bugs you can prevent in C++ that can't be similarly prevented in Rust. Or maybe C++ isn't safer, but it's more performant? Easier to use? Easier to learn? Easier to troubleshoot and debug? I agree that the Zig comment that started this sub-thread didn't contribute to the conversation. If we disagree, although I'm not sure we do, it's in that I'd rather call for higher-effort comments about the benefits of other languages instead of fewer comments about them.

pjmlp 5y ago
- GPGPU programing ecosystem like CUDA and SYSCL (note eco-system, not just a compiler that generates PTX code) - Game engines like Unreal and Unity - GUI frameworks like wxWidgets, Qt, MFC, WinUI - Being the language of choice to contribute anything to GCC or LLVM - Being the language of choice for the native libraries ecosystem and runtime extensions to plug into Java, .NET, nodejs. - Being the language to write drivers in macOS (IO Kit/Driver Kit), and Android alongside Java (Project Treble) - Being avaialble out of the box on macOS, iOS, Windows, Android, Playstation, XBox, Switch SDKs and respective IDE tooling So you can decide to deal with some of C++ flaws, and enjoy 40 years of history, or spend part of your application development budget into building a Rust ecosytem.
- oblio 5y ago
  > Windows The C++ SDK is definitely not available out of the box on Windows. You have to install it (and update it manually!).
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Only for those that chose the path of not using the OS vendor tools and don't install Visual Studio. Not only it is automatically selected in the respective workloads that depend on it being avaiable, it gets updated.