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ABET accredited schools already require "ethics". Most of these classes are: Emmanuel Kant existed and "don't copy that floppy." I'm sure there are some very co

ABET accredited schools already require "ethics". Most of these classes are: Emmanuel Kant existed and "don't copy that floppy." I'm sure there are some very competent professors from the philosophy departments whom do a very competent job, but I'm speaking in generalities. The fact is that if someone's employer, like an academic advisor, asks you to do something "unethical" most of that training is moot.

N1H1L 6y ago
The ethics coursework at my ABET accredited alma mater, which was a 1 credit joke BTW, mostly covered plagiarism. Human ethics are basically not covered at all. There is a huge ideological blindspot inside engineering departments - if my work is thorough and scientifically sound that's enough. The process is elevated above the final result, especially the final product's interaction with the wider world. You can build a nuclear bomb following that mindset, but people just seem to miss it.
XorNot 6y ago
Real engineers have actual professional standards bodies they're accountable too for ethical violations. Your boss telling you to do something unethical runs right up against the risk you won't be able to practice your profession. This is why the built environment largely endures.
- danmg 6y ago
  It's only a very small minority of engineers who do. Unless you're a PE and you get to sign off on large development projects, there's no real accountability. No matter how much teeth a governing body has, it's always going to be gun shy about denying people their livelihood. They're only going to go after the most egregious and flagrant problems. As long as the transgressions are mild, they pose no real danger to those who want to violate whatever ethics code are in place.
tenacious_tuna 6y ago
I sat on the curriculum committee for my university's (one of the Big 10) CS program for a year as an undergrad, and got to see first-hand some of the justifications from the faculty for how certain courses met the requirements of the ABET program. It was... often something of a stretch, especially when it came to "soft skills" like ethics and whatnot. As I remember, the "justification" for meeting the ABET ethics requirements was spread across at least three courses, the first of which was a 1 credit lecture course that everyone in the major (including myself) blew off. To be fair, we were already having difficulty cramming all the ABET requirements into the course material, to say nothing of related software development skills and tools. Our program was struggling to accommodate the insane growth we were already seeing in students--enrollments grew by something like 70% over six years, and we were struggling to hire sufficient faculty. When I graduated we were leaning heavily on online-only introductory courses and grading automation, which has its own issues.

N1H1L 6y ago

The ethics coursework at my ABET accredited alma mater, which was a 1 credit joke BTW, mostly covered plagiarism. Human ethics are basically not covered at all. There is a huge ideological blindspot inside engineering departments - if my work is thorough and scientifically sound that's enough. The process is elevated above the final result, especially the final product's interaction with the wider world. You can build a nuclear bomb following that mindset, but people just seem to miss it.

XorNot 6y ago

Real engineers have actual professional standards bodies they're accountable too for ethical violations. Your boss telling you to do something unethical runs right up against the risk you won't be able to practice your profession. This is why the built environment largely endures.

danmg 6y ago
It's only a very small minority of engineers who do. Unless you're a PE and you get to sign off on large development projects, there's no real accountability. No matter how much teeth a governing body has, it's always going to be gun shy about denying people their livelihood. They're only going to go after the most egregious and flagrant problems. As long as the transgressions are mild, they pose no real danger to those who want to violate whatever ethics code are in place.

tenacious_tuna 6y ago

I sat on the curriculum committee for my university's (one of the Big 10) CS program for a year as an undergrad, and got to see first-hand some of the justifications from the faculty for how certain courses met the requirements of the ABET program. It was... often something of a stretch, especially when it came to "soft skills" like ethics and whatnot. As I remember, the "justification" for meeting the ABET ethics requirements was spread across at least three courses, the first of which was a 1 credit lecture course that everyone in the major (including myself) blew off. To be fair, we were already having difficulty cramming all the ABET requirements into the course material, to say nothing of related software development skills and tools. Our program was struggling to accommodate the insane growth we were already seeing in students--enrollments grew by something like 70% over six years, and we were struggling to hire sufficient faculty. When I graduated we were leaning heavily on online-only introductory courses and grading automation, which has its own issues.