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> Would you agree that keylogger is a term for malicious software with the purpose of stealing private data such as credentials? No, I would not. Keylogger, I

by hvdijk 5y ago

> Would you agree that keylogger is a term for malicious software with the purpose of stealing private data such as credentials? No, I would not. Keylogger, I would say, is what the name implies: is a term for software that records keystrokes. In order for the term to be useful we have to limit it to such software where the recording is not obvious to the user, as otherwise even Notepad would count, but we do not have to limit it to malicious software.

_flux 5y ago
So, basically, Google Docs is a keylogger? Would that go along with the common consensus, or perhaps water down the term to near meaningless? Maybe Firefox is keylogging my input as well; and in fact, so is Linux. Keyboard itself, definitely. Once I had X11 enter old keystrokes (so it had missed the read position in the input ring buffer and every stroke entered a key from the past); keyloggers all around. Kidding aside, I believe it is important to use terminology all parties agree on; after all, words are a tool for communicating. Even if an individual finds a deeper or "fundamental" meaning in a word outside the typical use of a word, attempting to use and understand it in such a way hinders communication.
- hvdijk 5y ago
  Agreed, if there is consensus on what a word means it's unnecessarily distracting to use it in a different sense. In this case, the common meaning of keylogger is not restricted to malicious software, so we shouldn't insist here that it is.
  - ChrisLomont 5y ago
    >the common meaning of keylogger is not restricted to malicious software Over 99% of the hits on a google search use keylogger restricted to malicious software (sampled the first dozen or so pages). The first sentence in Wikipedia is "Keystroke logging, often referred to as keylogging or keyboard capturing, is the action of recording (logging) the keys struck on a keyboard, typically covertly, so that a person using the keyboard is unaware that their actions are being monitored". The top definition googling a definition is "a computer program that records every keystroke made by a computer user, especially in order to gain fraudulent access to passwords and other confidential information." What metric did you use to conclude that the "common meaning" is not this common meaning? Not a single place I have found claims the common meaning is anything other than surreptitiously recording user keystrokes for nefarious purposes. Do you have even one such link?
    - hvdijk 5y ago
      I'm curious what you searched for, because the majority of the very first page of Google search results agrees with me, actually. Two of these say define keyloggers in a way that is inherently malicious, most give a neutral definition. They do go on to say how such software can be used by criminals, but most do not say that keyloggers are inherently malicious, and some very specifically deny that: https://www.csoonline.com/article/3326304/what-is-a-keylogger-how-attackers-can-monitor-everything-you-type.html https://www.csoonline.com/article/3326304/what-is-a-keylogge...: > Keyloggers are a type of monitoring software designed to record keystrokes made by a user. https://securelist.com/keyloggers-how-they-work-and-how-to-detect-them-part-1/36138/ https://securelist.com/keyloggers-how-they-work-and-how-to-d...: > The term ‘keylogger’ itself is neutral, and the word describes the program’s function. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystroke_logging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystroke_logging: > Keystroke logging, often referred to as keylogging or keyboard capturing, is the action of recording (logging) the keys struck on a keyboard, typically covertly, so that a person using the keyboard is unaware that their actions are being monitored. https://home.sophos.com/en-us/security-news/2019/what-is-a-keylogger.aspx https://home.sophos.com/en-us/security-news/2019/what-is-a-k...: > A keylogger is an insidious form of spyware. https://www.kaspersky.co.uk/resource-center/definitions/keylogger https://www.kaspersky.co.uk/resource-center/definitions/keyl...: > Keyloggers are used for legitimate purposes like feedback for software development but can be misused by criminals to steal your data. https://www.mcafee.com/blogs/consumer/family-safety/what-is-a-keylogger/ https://www.mcafee.com/blogs/consumer/family-safety/what-is-...: > A keylogger (short for keystroke logger) is software that tracks or logs the keys struck on your keyboard, typically in a covert manner so that you don’t know that your actions are being monitored. This is usually done with malicious intent to collect your account information, credit card numbers, user names, passwords, and other private data. https://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/definition/keylogger https://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/definition/keylogger: > Keyloggers are often used as a spyware tool by cybercriminals [...]. Keylogger recorders may also be used by: [...] These uses could be considered ethical or appropriate in varying degrees. https://www.malwarebytes.com/keylogger/ https://www.malwarebytes.com/keylogger/: > Keyloggers are a common tool for corporations, which information technology departments use to troubleshoot technical problems on their systems and networks—or to keep an eye on employees surreptitiously. The same goes for, say, parents, who want to monitor their children’s activities. https://enterprise.comodo.com/what-is-a-keylogger.php https://enterprise.comodo.com/what-is-a-keylogger.php: > At its most basic definition, a keylogger is a function which records or keystrokes on a computer. Taken at this basic level, a keylogger looks absolutely harmless. In the hands of a hacker or a cybercriminal, a keylogger is a potent tool to steal away your information. https://us.norton.com/internetsecurity-malware-what-is-a-keylogger.html https://us.norton.com/internetsecurity-malware-what-is-a-key...: > A keylogger is a type of spyware that can be used to track and log the keys you strike on your keyboard, capturing any information typed. Keyloggers are insidious because you don’t know they’re there, watching and recording everything you type.
  - eitland 5y ago
    > In this case, the common meaning of keylogger is not restricted to malicious software, so we shouldn't insist here that it is. The common meaning of keylogger is restricted to stealthily recording an unsuspecting users keyboard input. Malicious or not depends on the user who uses it and what they use it for and possibly also is in they eye of the beholder, but Google Docs or a an auto complete search field is not a keylogger by any definition I've seen used. But what do I know, I've only been interested in this since the nineties.
  - karaterobot 5y ago
    Strongly disagree that most people think of autosuggest in a search form as a keylogger. I've never once heard it referred to as such, outside this thread. I think most people think of a keylogger as a malicious program that secretly records your keyboard activity when you don't know about it. If they think about it at all, they think of autosuggest as analogous to a form submission.
    - volkk 5y ago
      this is such a classic HN argument, it's almost comical. pedants from every part of the world going at it and even including google search results, picking apart each word that the original author meant to prove their point. this is the kind of conversation that would make me want to rip my head off in an office environment. but from my POV i would also say that 95% of the time i've ever bumped into the term, it was always used in a cyber attack context. the other 5% was from corporate overlords wanting to spy on your actions.
      - hvdijk 5y ago
        Yeah, please take into account that I only listed the Google search results in reply to a blatantly false claim that Google search returned completely different results. Bullshit needs to be called out.
- luke2m 5y ago
  I want my Linux box or my keyboard to get my keystrokes. I don’t want my typing on a website before submitting a form sent to a third party. Key logging is how Blacklight describes it.
- BTCOG 5y ago
  It honestly sounds like you've come to allow all types of keylogging to become (to yourself only) allowable and called by any other name. Yes, if Google Docs does actually take each keystroke and record it and save record of it, even once backed out/deleted from a field, this is in fact keylogging.
leesalminen 5y ago
It’s not obvious to the user that when they type in a search bar their text will be used to find relevant content on the site?
- hvdijk 5y ago
  Indeed, it's not necessarily going to be obvious to a user that when they type in a search bar their text will be used to find relevant content on the site even before the user clicks a "Search" button.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
syshum 5y ago
TIL that all software that accepts keyboard I/O is now a "keylogger" wow...

by hvdijk 5y ago

_flux 5y ago

So, basically, Google Docs is a keylogger? Would that go along with the common consensus, or perhaps water down the term to near meaningless? Maybe Firefox is keylogging my input as well; and in fact, so is Linux. Keyboard itself, definitely. Once I had X11 enter old keystrokes (so it had missed the read position in the input ring buffer and every stroke entered a key from the past); keyloggers all around. Kidding aside, I believe it is important to use terminology all parties agree on; after all, words are a tool for communicating. Even if an individual finds a deeper or "fundamental" meaning in a word outside the typical use of a word, attempting to use and understand it in such a way hinders communication.

hvdijk 5y ago
Agreed, if there is consensus on what a word means it's unnecessarily distracting to use it in a different sense. In this case, the common meaning of keylogger is not restricted to malicious software, so we shouldn't insist here that it is.
- ChrisLomont 5y ago
  >the common meaning of keylogger is not restricted to malicious software Over 99% of the hits on a google search use keylogger restricted to malicious software (sampled the first dozen or so pages). The first sentence in Wikipedia is "Keystroke logging, often referred to as keylogging or keyboard capturing, is the action of recording (logging) the keys struck on a keyboard, typically covertly, so that a person using the keyboard is unaware that their actions are being monitored". The top definition googling a definition is "a computer program that records every keystroke made by a computer user, especially in order to gain fraudulent access to passwords and other confidential information." What metric did you use to conclude that the "common meaning" is not this common meaning? Not a single place I have found claims the common meaning is anything other than surreptitiously recording user keystrokes for nefarious purposes. Do you have even one such link?
  - hvdijk 5y ago
    I'm curious what you searched for, because the majority of the very first page of Google search results agrees with me, actually. Two of these say define keyloggers in a way that is inherently malicious, most give a neutral definition. They do go on to say how such software can be used by criminals, but most do not say that keyloggers are inherently malicious, and some very specifically deny that: https://www.csoonline.com/article/3326304/what-is-a-keylogger-how-attackers-can-monitor-everything-you-type.html https://www.csoonline.com/article/3326304/what-is-a-keylogge...: > Keyloggers are a type of monitoring software designed to record keystrokes made by a user. https://securelist.com/keyloggers-how-they-work-and-how-to-detect-them-part-1/36138/ https://securelist.com/keyloggers-how-they-work-and-how-to-d...: > The term ‘keylogger’ itself is neutral, and the word describes the program’s function. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystroke_logging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystroke_logging: > Keystroke logging, often referred to as keylogging or keyboard capturing, is the action of recording (logging) the keys struck on a keyboard, typically covertly, so that a person using the keyboard is unaware that their actions are being monitored. https://home.sophos.com/en-us/security-news/2019/what-is-a-keylogger.aspx https://home.sophos.com/en-us/security-news/2019/what-is-a-k...: > A keylogger is an insidious form of spyware. https://www.kaspersky.co.uk/resource-center/definitions/keylogger https://www.kaspersky.co.uk/resource-center/definitions/keyl...: > Keyloggers are used for legitimate purposes like feedback for software development but can be misused by criminals to steal your data. https://www.mcafee.com/blogs/consumer/family-safety/what-is-a-keylogger/ https://www.mcafee.com/blogs/consumer/family-safety/what-is-...: > A keylogger (short for keystroke logger) is software that tracks or logs the keys struck on your keyboard, typically in a covert manner so that you don’t know that your actions are being monitored. This is usually done with malicious intent to collect your account information, credit card numbers, user names, passwords, and other private data. https://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/definition/keylogger https://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/definition/keylogger: > Keyloggers are often used as a spyware tool by cybercriminals [...]. Keylogger recorders may also be used by: [...] These uses could be considered ethical or appropriate in varying degrees. https://www.malwarebytes.com/keylogger/ https://www.malwarebytes.com/keylogger/: > Keyloggers are a common tool for corporations, which information technology departments use to troubleshoot technical problems on their systems and networks—or to keep an eye on employees surreptitiously. The same goes for, say, parents, who want to monitor their children’s activities. https://enterprise.comodo.com/what-is-a-keylogger.php https://enterprise.comodo.com/what-is-a-keylogger.php: > At its most basic definition, a keylogger is a function which records or keystrokes on a computer. Taken at this basic level, a keylogger looks absolutely harmless. In the hands of a hacker or a cybercriminal, a keylogger is a potent tool to steal away your information. https://us.norton.com/internetsecurity-malware-what-is-a-keylogger.html https://us.norton.com/internetsecurity-malware-what-is-a-key...: > A keylogger is a type of spyware that can be used to track and log the keys you strike on your keyboard, capturing any information typed. Keyloggers are insidious because you don’t know they’re there, watching and recording everything you type.
- eitland 5y ago
  > In this case, the common meaning of keylogger is not restricted to malicious software, so we shouldn't insist here that it is. The common meaning of keylogger is restricted to stealthily recording an unsuspecting users keyboard input. Malicious or not depends on the user who uses it and what they use it for and possibly also is in they eye of the beholder, but Google Docs or a an auto complete search field is not a keylogger by any definition I've seen used. But what do I know, I've only been interested in this since the nineties.
- karaterobot 5y ago
  Strongly disagree that most people think of autosuggest in a search form as a keylogger. I've never once heard it referred to as such, outside this thread. I think most people think of a keylogger as a malicious program that secretly records your keyboard activity when you don't know about it. If they think about it at all, they think of autosuggest as analogous to a form submission.
  - volkk 5y ago
    this is such a classic HN argument, it's almost comical. pedants from every part of the world going at it and even including google search results, picking apart each word that the original author meant to prove their point. this is the kind of conversation that would make me want to rip my head off in an office environment. but from my POV i would also say that 95% of the time i've ever bumped into the term, it was always used in a cyber attack context. the other 5% was from corporate overlords wanting to spy on your actions.
    - hvdijk 5y ago
      Yeah, please take into account that I only listed the Google search results in reply to a blatantly false claim that Google search returned completely different results. Bullshit needs to be called out.
luke2m 5y ago
I want my Linux box or my keyboard to get my keystrokes. I don’t want my typing on a website before submitting a form sent to a third party. Key logging is how Blacklight describes it.
BTCOG 5y ago
It honestly sounds like you've come to allow all types of keylogging to become (to yourself only) allowable and called by any other name. Yes, if Google Docs does actually take each keystroke and record it and save record of it, even once backed out/deleted from a field, this is in fact keylogging.

leesalminen 5y ago

It’s not obvious to the user that when they type in a search bar their text will be used to find relevant content on the site?

hvdijk 5y ago
Indeed, it's not necessarily going to be obvious to a user that when they type in a search bar their text will be used to find relevant content on the site even before the user clicks a "Search" button.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

syshum 5y ago

TIL that all software that accepts keyboard I/O is now a "keylogger" wow...