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> then the exploitation of foreign workers during the "economic wonder" time after the war. Until now things didn't change much. I am not argueing that there i

> then the exploitation of foreign workers during the "economic wonder" time after the war. Until now things didn't change much. I am not argueing that there is not abuse. But to force this narrative, you have to be already behind the "border wall" and therefor rich enough to be either nationalist ("no immigration!") or very naive ("just give them money!"). Either way in my mind you are putting yourself above the poor little people, who are in such misery. You do not think they are trying to do what's best for them? They are responsible for their own fortune and many of their children actually make it. Look at what is happening to Poland (one of the sources of immigration). Germany actively sends money there (through the EU), people working in Germany are effectively extracting money from Germany to Poland and the economy is growing like crazy (for European standards). Everyone benefits.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
> people working in Germany are effectively extracting money from Germany to Poland WTF?! How are Poles working in Germany effectively extracting money from Germany? They pay income taxes in Germany like everyone else. They are then free to do with their NET income what they please. There is no obligation to spend your after-tax income in the same country.
- allendoerfer 5y ago
  People living in Poland (for the most part), but working in Germany ARE moving money to Poland. I am not angry about this. The same happens at the Swiss border with Germans. Everyone benefits, living conditions equalize, trade increases, everyone gets richer.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >People living in Poland ... but working in Germany People living in Poland and working in Germany are either commuters or remote workers, not immigrants like you mentioned in your post above to which I replied: ["Poland (one of the sources of immigration)"]. And they're not extracting money from Germany, they are earning it fairly and legally.
tut-urut-utut 5y ago
> Either way in my mind you are putting yourself above the poor little people, who are in such misery. You do not think they are trying to do what's best for them? They are responsible for their own fortune and many of their children actually make it. I don't understand that logic. I am not putting myself above anyone, just stating a fact. And the fact is that a was majority of immigrants are indeed doing their best and trying to make it, but they have neither the same starting point nor the same chance like locals. They had it harder at every step, in school someone called Mahmet get on overage 1/2 lower note in German than Max, given the same performance immigrant children are less likely to get recommendation for Gymnasium. Someon with foreign name will have more issues searching for an apartment to rent, get less invitations for a job interview, and even be paid less for the same job, where we will hit the glass ceiling and not be promoted above a certain level. Don't get me wrong, this is not specific to Germany, and this is not a simple issue, but let's not pretend that it doesn't exist. Yes, many people make it, but not because Germany is so egalitarian society, but despite all those issues.
- allendoerfer 5y ago
  > I don't understand that logic. In your first reply you talked about exploitation of immigrants by the economy. Now you are talking about racism throughout society. Those are two connected but different topics. I am argueing only against the first (economic growth only through abusing immigrants). My point was basically: People are not helpless, they are trying to advance on their own. Since nobody forced them to come, I am just assuming that they are not stupid, but actually get something out of it. So a liberal believe in human ability. I agree with the point you raised in your next reply. People should be treated equally. But I do not think, that this does support your argument. People not being able to advance even hurts the economy. I do not think you gave an example of immigrants being exploited for the sake of economic growth. I think everyone profitted (I gave Poland as an example in a sister comment).

ChuckNorris89 5y ago

> people working in Germany are effectively extracting money from Germany to Poland WTF?! How are Poles working in Germany effectively extracting money from Germany? They pay income taxes in Germany like everyone else. They are then free to do with their NET income what they please. There is no obligation to spend your after-tax income in the same country.

allendoerfer 5y ago
People living in Poland (for the most part), but working in Germany ARE moving money to Poland. I am not angry about this. The same happens at the Swiss border with Germans. Everyone benefits, living conditions equalize, trade increases, everyone gets richer.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >People living in Poland ... but working in Germany People living in Poland and working in Germany are either commuters or remote workers, not immigrants like you mentioned in your post above to which I replied: ["Poland (one of the sources of immigration)"]. And they're not extracting money from Germany, they are earning it fairly and legally.

tut-urut-utut 5y ago

> Either way in my mind you are putting yourself above the poor little people, who are in such misery. You do not think they are trying to do what's best for them? They are responsible for their own fortune and many of their children actually make it. I don't understand that logic. I am not putting myself above anyone, just stating a fact. And the fact is that a was majority of immigrants are indeed doing their best and trying to make it, but they have neither the same starting point nor the same chance like locals. They had it harder at every step, in school someone called Mahmet get on overage 1/2 lower note in German than Max, given the same performance immigrant children are less likely to get recommendation for Gymnasium. Someon with foreign name will have more issues searching for an apartment to rent, get less invitations for a job interview, and even be paid less for the same job, where we will hit the glass ceiling and not be promoted above a certain level. Don't get me wrong, this is not specific to Germany, and this is not a simple issue, but let's not pretend that it doesn't exist. Yes, many people make it, but not because Germany is so egalitarian society, but despite all those issues.

allendoerfer 5y ago
> I don't understand that logic. In your first reply you talked about exploitation of immigrants by the economy. Now you are talking about racism throughout society. Those are two connected but different topics. I am argueing only against the first (economic growth only through abusing immigrants). My point was basically: People are not helpless, they are trying to advance on their own. Since nobody forced them to come, I am just assuming that they are not stupid, but actually get something out of it. So a liberal believe in human ability. I agree with the point you raised in your next reply. People should be treated equally. But I do not think, that this does support your argument. People not being able to advance even hurts the economy. I do not think you gave an example of immigrants being exploited for the sake of economic growth. I think everyone profitted (I gave Poland as an example in a sister comment).