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Edit: I think I wasn't clear. I wasn't try to claim alpine hiking is totally safe. Just that there is less of an issue with guides taking inexperienced people b

Edit: I think I wasn't clear. I wasn't try to claim alpine hiking is totally safe. Just that there is less of an issue with guides taking inexperienced people beyond their competency. Clearly alpine hiking isn't totally safe as many people sadly perish doing it. I'm not sure I agree about alpine hiking. Most of the failure states I've seen can be avoided by having at least one competent person (out too late, lost, continue in bad weather, etc.) There is still the issue of approving people who aren't fit enough, but you've got a much slower start than diving and you'll probably notice that sort of thing before you're too far in to turn back. Edit: Possibly you meant more mountaineering-y sorts of trips instead. If you're talking about the sort of thing where you might use protection then I agree with you.

ghaff 6y ago
I was debating disagreeing with the equivalence with alpine hiking. As I said in another comment, it's mostly about judgment when it comes to alpine hiking. Although perhaps that’s the case with diving as well. Of course, get more into mountaineering and there are a ton of factors like avalanches you can't fully protect against. (And there's of course some overlap with winter hiking in the mountains.) ADDED: re: fitness. I've definitely had to take people down when I've been leading a trip and even had to turn a group around. But so long as you don't push on past where it's safe, it mostly just means people don't get up the mountain. (Of course, it can be a problem with canyons.)
christophilus 6y ago
One of my (very experienced) alpine hiking instructors died after a long day summiting Rainer. His team made a rookie mistake, but it’s surprisingly easy to do when you’re exhausted and you feel as if you’re nearly done with the worst of it.
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  I was told, most of the climbing accidents happens in easy terrain. When also experienced people get careless. My experience matches that.
  - nix23 6y ago
    Another point is you get much more injuries when the wall is not steep (you slide along, instead of falling in free-air), another are stones if the wall is not steep they roll along the wall. That's a perfect example off misjudge objective and subjective dangers. An overhanging wall is much less dangerous then anything else, but your brain tells something else.
    - darkerside 6y ago
      I'd generally trade more little injuries sliding down a shallow wall for one big injury from a free fall.
      - nix23 6y ago
        For that you have a rope, that's the objective part...you would not climb (i hope) an overhanging wall. >little injuries sliding down a shallow wall Those are often not "little" the rocks rip you apart, and when you stop you look not human anymore (a bag of flesh)...happens often at glaciers too.
        hutzlibu 6y ago
        Oh, but in the alps there are ways with a metal ladder, where you indeed "walk" a overhanging way, without rope. Not for everyone obviously.
        nix23 6y ago
        You have steelropes or hooks there too and a via ferrata set with a shock-absorber and a helmet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_ferrata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_ferrata And if without securing...even a bigger objective danger for you to decide if you can do it, that's the point.
  - marcyb5st 6y ago
    Not sure if you are still focusing on alpine hiking or climbing. While climbing most deadly accidents (30+% of them [1]) happen because people rappel through the end of the rope (or ropes if using half/twin ropes). Stopper knots are a 10s precaution that is often overlooked. However, it is true that on easier climbing routes it is easier to hurt yourself because you might hit a ledge on your way down. If that happens it's most likely the belayer's fault because he/she should keep "a tight leash" on the sections just above said ledges. If you let an unexperienced person belay you I assume you evaluated the risk and are ok with that. [1] https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/8_common_climbing_accidents_and_how_to_avoid_them-6962 https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/8_common_climbing...
- iudqnolq 6y ago
  I'm sorry to hear that. I wasn't try to claim alpine hiking is totally safe. Just that there is less of an issue with guides taking inexperienced people beyond their competency.
hutzlibu 6y ago
"Most of the failure states I've seen can be avoided by having at least one competent person" Thats why "guides" exist. And if course it is very safe with a competent guide. But alpine hiking can be indeed very dangerous, without. Because Alpine hiking has climbing elements in it. Add to that a storm and wind and fog - and you have tourists with sandals on slippery rock about to fall very deep. Happens allmost every year.

ghaff 6y ago

I was debating disagreeing with the equivalence with alpine hiking. As I said in another comment, it's mostly about judgment when it comes to alpine hiking. Although perhaps that’s the case with diving as well. Of course, get more into mountaineering and there are a ton of factors like avalanches you can't fully protect against. (And there's of course some overlap with winter hiking in the mountains.) ADDED: re: fitness. I've definitely had to take people down when I've been leading a trip and even had to turn a group around. But so long as you don't push on past where it's safe, it mostly just means people don't get up the mountain. (Of course, it can be a problem with canyons.)

christophilus 6y ago

One of my (very experienced) alpine hiking instructors died after a long day summiting Rainer. His team made a rookie mistake, but it’s surprisingly easy to do when you’re exhausted and you feel as if you’re nearly done with the worst of it.

hutzlibu 6y ago
I was told, most of the climbing accidents happens in easy terrain. When also experienced people get careless. My experience matches that.
- nix23 6y ago
  Another point is you get much more injuries when the wall is not steep (you slide along, instead of falling in free-air), another are stones if the wall is not steep they roll along the wall. That's a perfect example off misjudge objective and subjective dangers. An overhanging wall is much less dangerous then anything else, but your brain tells something else.
  - darkerside 6y ago
    I'd generally trade more little injuries sliding down a shallow wall for one big injury from a free fall.
    - nix23 6y ago
      For that you have a rope, that's the objective part...you would not climb (i hope) an overhanging wall. >little injuries sliding down a shallow wall Those are often not "little" the rocks rip you apart, and when you stop you look not human anymore (a bag of flesh)...happens often at glaciers too.
      - hutzlibu 6y ago
        Oh, but in the alps there are ways with a metal ladder, where you indeed "walk" a overhanging way, without rope. Not for everyone obviously.
        nix23 6y ago
        You have steelropes or hooks there too and a via ferrata set with a shock-absorber and a helmet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_ferrata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_ferrata And if without securing...even a bigger objective danger for you to decide if you can do it, that's the point.
- marcyb5st 6y ago
  Not sure if you are still focusing on alpine hiking or climbing. While climbing most deadly accidents (30+% of them [1]) happen because people rappel through the end of the rope (or ropes if using half/twin ropes). Stopper knots are a 10s precaution that is often overlooked. However, it is true that on easier climbing routes it is easier to hurt yourself because you might hit a ledge on your way down. If that happens it's most likely the belayer's fault because he/she should keep "a tight leash" on the sections just above said ledges. If you let an unexperienced person belay you I assume you evaluated the risk and are ok with that. [1] https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/8_common_climbing_accidents_and_how_to_avoid_them-6962 https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/8_common_climbing...
iudqnolq 6y ago
I'm sorry to hear that. I wasn't try to claim alpine hiking is totally safe. Just that there is less of an issue with guides taking inexperienced people beyond their competency.

hutzlibu 6y ago

"Most of the failure states I've seen can be avoided by having at least one competent person" Thats why "guides" exist. And if course it is very safe with a competent guide. But alpine hiking can be indeed very dangerous, without. Because Alpine hiking has climbing elements in it. Add to that a storm and wind and fog - and you have tourists with sandals on slippery rock about to fall very deep. Happens allmost every year.