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I cannot understand how this works at restaurants in the US. Last time I visited it went like this: 1. I get a bill ($50 for example) and give the server my c

by dkarp 5y ago

I cannot understand how this works at restaurants in the US. Last time I visited it went like this: 1. I get a bill ($50 for example) and give the server my card 2. A card payment notification appears on my phone for the $50 payment with my bank 3. The receipt comes back with a tip field where I write $10 and sign 4. The server now updates the payment and a few days later when the payment clears, the amount has changed to $60 But what if the server chose to enter $20 instead of the $10 I specified? Do I have to keep the receipt and remember to go check that the cleared payment matches a few days later? How else would that be caught? In the UK, you enter the tip on the card machine when you put your card in, so the payment is immediately taken and everything is clear. I really want to know why I shouldn't worry about the above scenario next time I cross the pond!

danielecook 5y ago
It does seem weird. All I can say is that changing the tip amount is rare. I’ve never seen it happen, or perhaps I’ve never noticed. Additionally, I don’t worry about it thou because my past experience suggests I can reverse the charges if I call the credit card company fairly easily.
xwdv 5y ago
One call to your credit card company about the fraudulent charge and it’s resolved. They will do an investigation and the price of the original transaction before the tip will be discovered. Also, the employee who changed the tip amount will likely be fired.
- naturalauction 5y ago
  Additionally the whole charge is likely to be reversed (or it has been for me in similar situations) and the business will have to pay a pretty big ($20+) fee. Of course the employee could be a bad actor but it's in the businesses best interest to try to ensure that isn't the case. I think if there are too many chargebacks, the business gets designated as high-risk and will also have to pay more processing fees. One thing to note about the US is that card processing fees are more than double what they are in the UK/EU. It allows CC companies to eat the costs of fraud more without passing it onto the consumer/business.
- dkarp 5y ago
  Right, so you're saying it up to me to notice and call the credit card company? In that case, I need to go through my statement and remember that the $70 charge was supposed to be $60, or have the receipts and check it. That isn't something I have to do here, because it all happens at the same time. Or are you saying that the penalty for the restaurant/server is high enough that this sort of thing just doesn't really happen much?
  - chrisdhal 5y ago
    I've never seen it happen and I use credit cards for everything. I can't remember the last meal in a restaurant that I didn't use a credit card. I've never heard of it happening from any friends or family either. It just isn't a thing. Same with stealing number. Yes it's kind of strange that most of the time the server just takes your card and disappears for a while, but I've never heard of a number being stolen from anybody I know. Of course, it does happen, but it's very rare.
  - xwdv 5y ago
    Here’s the thing man, until you personally see it happen at least once, don’t bother worrying about it. The odds are super slim and the incentives to commit tip fraud on one meal are high risk for little gain. I’ve never seen it happen or heard of it happening.
anaerobicover 5y ago
> But what if the server chose to enter $20 instead of the $10 I specified? Unless they have complicity with management, the risk over reward is too great to try this. If they kept the skim small to be unnoticed -- $3-5 on each check, perhaps -- it may still not add up to being worthwhile. Most people in the world are not criminal masterminds; I think sometimes engineers like us forget that others are not constantly looking for loopholes in everything. :)
jjav 5y ago
> But what if the server chose to enter $20 instead of the $10 I specified? Sure, they could. As long as you kept the receipt just show it to the credit card company and they'll reverse it. More importantly, I'd imagine the store would be heavily penalized, up to possibly losing their credit card contract which would leave them unable to accept payments if it's a recurring problem. So, it doesn't really happen. In decades of eating out a lot, never seen it (and I'm the type who checks every line item in the credit card statement so I'd notice if anything is even a penny off). So no reason to worry about it. > you enter the tip on the card machine when you put your card in Personally I hate this so much, because I want to compute the tip and it's really uncomfortable to do so with the waiter staring at me. I want them to go away and give me time and peace to do the calculation.
- dkarp 5y ago
  Yea, it seems to come down to the penalties being high enough that this fraud isn't worth it. As a software engineer, the idea of writing in my bad handwriting the tip and total and then someone who is probably in a hurry typing it in seems like a way to introduce more human error. That's much less likely to happen with a terminal and, since most banks here send you instant payment notifications, you're likely to catch it immediately. Obviously this system is working for billions of payments a year over there so it can't be too much of an issue! Next time I'm there, I'll not worry about it.

by dkarp 5y ago

danielecook 5y ago

It does seem weird. All I can say is that changing the tip amount is rare. I’ve never seen it happen, or perhaps I’ve never noticed. Additionally, I don’t worry about it thou because my past experience suggests I can reverse the charges if I call the credit card company fairly easily.

xwdv 5y ago

One call to your credit card company about the fraudulent charge and it’s resolved. They will do an investigation and the price of the original transaction before the tip will be discovered. Also, the employee who changed the tip amount will likely be fired.

naturalauction 5y ago
Additionally the whole charge is likely to be reversed (or it has been for me in similar situations) and the business will have to pay a pretty big ($20+) fee. Of course the employee could be a bad actor but it's in the businesses best interest to try to ensure that isn't the case. I think if there are too many chargebacks, the business gets designated as high-risk and will also have to pay more processing fees. One thing to note about the US is that card processing fees are more than double what they are in the UK/EU. It allows CC companies to eat the costs of fraud more without passing it onto the consumer/business.
dkarp 5y ago
Right, so you're saying it up to me to notice and call the credit card company? In that case, I need to go through my statement and remember that the $70 charge was supposed to be $60, or have the receipts and check it. That isn't something I have to do here, because it all happens at the same time. Or are you saying that the penalty for the restaurant/server is high enough that this sort of thing just doesn't really happen much?
- chrisdhal 5y ago
  I've never seen it happen and I use credit cards for everything. I can't remember the last meal in a restaurant that I didn't use a credit card. I've never heard of it happening from any friends or family either. It just isn't a thing. Same with stealing number. Yes it's kind of strange that most of the time the server just takes your card and disappears for a while, but I've never heard of a number being stolen from anybody I know. Of course, it does happen, but it's very rare.
- xwdv 5y ago
  Here’s the thing man, until you personally see it happen at least once, don’t bother worrying about it. The odds are super slim and the incentives to commit tip fraud on one meal are high risk for little gain. I’ve never seen it happen or heard of it happening.

anaerobicover 5y ago

> But what if the server chose to enter $20 instead of the $10 I specified? Unless they have complicity with management, the risk over reward is too great to try this. If they kept the skim small to be unnoticed -- $3-5 on each check, perhaps -- it may still not add up to being worthwhile. Most people in the world are not criminal masterminds; I think sometimes engineers like us forget that others are not constantly looking for loopholes in everything. :)

jjav 5y ago

> But what if the server chose to enter $20 instead of the $10 I specified? Sure, they could. As long as you kept the receipt just show it to the credit card company and they'll reverse it. More importantly, I'd imagine the store would be heavily penalized, up to possibly losing their credit card contract which would leave them unable to accept payments if it's a recurring problem. So, it doesn't really happen. In decades of eating out a lot, never seen it (and I'm the type who checks every line item in the credit card statement so I'd notice if anything is even a penny off). So no reason to worry about it. > you enter the tip on the card machine when you put your card in Personally I hate this so much, because I want to compute the tip and it's really uncomfortable to do so with the waiter staring at me. I want them to go away and give me time and peace to do the calculation.

dkarp 5y ago
Yea, it seems to come down to the penalties being high enough that this fraud isn't worth it. As a software engineer, the idea of writing in my bad handwriting the tip and total and then someone who is probably in a hurry typing it in seems like a way to introduce more human error. That's much less likely to happen with a terminal and, since most banks here send you instant payment notifications, you're likely to catch it immediately. Obviously this system is working for billions of payments a year over there so it can't be too much of an issue! Next time I'm there, I'll not worry about it.