6 ms·

>I take a socially relatively cohesive country, where an illness or going to university will not bankrupt you, where your kids can travel alone in public transp

>I take a socially relatively cohesive country, where an illness or going to university will not bankrupt you, where your kids can travel alone in public transportation, where police shootings per year are single digits, where the air is very breathable and the tap water is drinkable over world leadership any time You're obviously entitled to your oppinion, but can we please stop pushing this cherry picked cliché narrative of "US bad because healthcare, shootings and tap water."? That's like saying Europe suffers from mass terrorist attacks and sexual assaults on young women. >We can always pump some billions into football or another sport once in a while and watch the nation win the world cup, if we really need to dominate something for no good reason Why not pump some billions in local unskilled wages and stricter enforcement of regulations so that foreign workers won't have to get exploited by unscrupulous German businesses?[1] That would be for an actual good reason IMHO. [1]https://www.dw.com/en/germany-meat-industry-conditions/a-54033187 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-meat-industry-conditions/a-540...

allendoerfer 6y ago
> Fine, but can we please stop pushing this cherry picked cliche narrative of "US bad because healthcare, shootings and tap water."? Well those are the reasons, why I would not want to live there, even though I recognize it's economical superiority. Actually mostly the freedom of children. The other things you can solve with money. But your kids will have way more freedom in Germany and there is nothing money can do about it in the US.
pas 6y ago
> Why not pump some billions in local unskilled wages Because there's not consensus about this as OP mentioned. And it's not hard to see that this is the case. AfD is making sure of this. Is the consensus about ignoring AfD and neonazis? Sometimes. :|
volta83 6y ago
> Fine, but can we please stop pushing this cherry picked cliche narrative of "US bad because healthcare, shootings and tap water."? Are you saying those aren't issues? Because I've lived in the US, and know many Europeans that have lived there or traveled there on holidays, and pretty much all of them agree that: - the first time in their lives they were afraid of getting ill was when they started living in the US - they were all astonished at the amount of homeless people living in tents in the downtowns of all major cities (here if a major city has like ~10 people sleeping outside in winter, that's bad, but the US is just shockingly bad) - the first time in their lives they were afraid of getting killed was in the US (e.g. interacting with the cops, walking through some neighborhoods) because people were carelessly carrying guns outside (there are guns in Europe, some countries like Switzerland have a ton of guns, but the way people manage guns in public, and that includes police, is radically different) - they were all astonished and the amount of fat people, and how fat they were. What people consider "fat" in Europe would probably be "normal" or maybe even "thin" in the US. You don't find in Europe people that are so fat that don't fit through the door of a bus. These are not narratives, these are facts that every European that lives or has lived in the US will happily tell you about. The US style of living is great if you have money, but Europeans measure their style of living by how the poorest people in their country live, not the richest people. By those measures, the US is an outrageous place for pretty much all European standards. > That's like saying Europe suffers from mass terrorist attacks and sexual assaults on young women. Do you think that's a made up narrative? Because everyone I know in Europe agrees that this is true, that these are horrible issues to have, and that these issues need fixing. Your argument that "the US has no issues because Europe has issues" is typically known as "whataboutism". Don't be a "whataboutist". It doesn't help fix neither Europe's nor USA's issues.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  >Your argument that "the US has no issues because Europe has issues" is typically known as "whataboutism". Sorry, but wasn't grandparent's (u/allendoerfer) original post the one that started the whataboutism? I was just contradicting him with a mirrored whataboutism to prove why his way of thinking is wrong? Why are you only cherry picking mine? The topic was regarding one of Germany's failure, and Grandparent (u/allendoerfer) posted something along the lines of "at least in Germany we have have breathable air and drinkable water unlike Americans who get shot instead". What does that have to do with the Wirecard situation and how is that anything else but severe offtopic whataboutism? >Europeans measure their style of living by how the poorest people in their country live, not the richest people. No they don't, otherwise, the wealth-gap between rich and poor wouldn't be at an all-time high in Germany/Europe [1][2]. [1]https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/german-expat-news/inheritance-and-coronavirus-are-increasing-wealth-inequality-germany https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/german-expat-news/inherit... [2]https://www.dw.com/en/study-shows-growing-wealth-inequality-in-germany/av-54412300 https://www.dw.com/en/study-shows-growing-wealth-inequality-...
  - volta83 6y ago
    > Sorry, but wasn't grandparent's original post the one that started the whataboutism? I was just contradicting him with a mirrored whataboutism to prove why his way of thinking is wrong? Why are you only cherry picking mine? The OP is making a trade-offs. They are arguing that they prefer the value proposition of living in Europe than that of living in the US. They don't seem to weight the downs of Europe or the pro's of the US much, so they are not mentioning them, which is IMO fair. We can argue about these pros and cons, whether they missed some, whether we weight them differently, etc. What I don't think is very helpful is just a straight "whataboutism" answer. You, me, and the OP are all different. What's a good value proposition for the OP might be bad for you and me. That's ok. It does not make the OP "wrong".
  - allendoerfer 6y ago
    I wasn't even (only) refering to the US. I was trying to bring accross, that it's quite nice to live in Germany and that it does not need to be dominant or proud of anything as a nation. I was trying to list benefits Germans take as a given, but are actually not available everywhere in the world (which has almost 200 countries btw, not only US + Germany). As far as I know, US also has breathable air and is somewhat save in most places. It's just that the unsafest place in Germany is probably still safer than almost everywhere else in the world. The basics are okay in Germany and they matter, even if you don't think about them day to day. If you want more, go on and build it, nobody forbids you to do so. Society just provides a nice baseline and even tries to catch you, in case you fall.
tut-urut-utut 6y ago
> Why not pump some billions in local unskilled wages and stricter enforcement of regulations so that foreign workers won't have to get exploited by unscrupulous German businesses?[1] That would be for an actual good reason IMHO. Modern German economy is practically built on exploitation of foreign workers. First there was a slave labour during the WW2, then the exploitation of foreign workers during the "economic wonder" time after the war. Until now things didn't change much.
- allendoerfer 6y ago
  > then the exploitation of foreign workers during the "economic wonder" time after the war. Until now things didn't change much. I am not argueing that there is not abuse. But to force this narrative, you have to be already behind the "border wall" and therefor rich enough to be either nationalist ("no immigration!") or very naive ("just give them money!"). Either way in my mind you are putting yourself above the poor little people, who are in such misery. You do not think they are trying to do what's best for them? They are responsible for their own fortune and many of their children actually make it. Look at what is happening to Poland (one of the sources of immigration). Germany actively sends money there (through the EU), people working in Germany are effectively extracting money from Germany to Poland and the economy is growing like crazy (for European standards). Everyone benefits.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    > people working in Germany are effectively extracting money from Germany to Poland WTF?! How are Poles working in Germany effectively extracting money from Germany? They pay income taxes in Germany like everyone else. They are then free to do with their NET income what they please. There is no obligation to spend your after-tax income in the same country.
    - allendoerfer 6y ago
      People living in Poland (for the most part), but working in Germany ARE moving money to Poland. I am not angry about this. The same happens at the Swiss border with Germans. Everyone benefits, living conditions equalize, trade increases, everyone gets richer.
idownvoted 6y ago
Unwillingly the grandparent (allendoerfer) proves the Author's (Adrian Daub @TNR) point by resorting to whataboutism about America's shortcomings. What has the US to do at all with this specific failure of Germany? And how is such whataboutism rhethoricaly honest, if the those american shortcomings are usually informed by other Germans?
NautilusWave 6y ago
Your list of cliché European issues, are also Usonian issues...

allendoerfer 6y ago

> Fine, but can we please stop pushing this cherry picked cliche narrative of "US bad because healthcare, shootings and tap water."? Well those are the reasons, why I would not want to live there, even though I recognize it's economical superiority. Actually mostly the freedom of children. The other things you can solve with money. But your kids will have way more freedom in Germany and there is nothing money can do about it in the US.

pas 6y ago

> Why not pump some billions in local unskilled wages Because there's not consensus about this as OP mentioned. And it's not hard to see that this is the case. AfD is making sure of this. Is the consensus about ignoring AfD and neonazis? Sometimes. :|

volta83 6y ago

> Fine, but can we please stop pushing this cherry picked cliche narrative of "US bad because healthcare, shootings and tap water."? Are you saying those aren't issues? Because I've lived in the US, and know many Europeans that have lived there or traveled there on holidays, and pretty much all of them agree that: - the first time in their lives they were afraid of getting ill was when they started living in the US - they were all astonished at the amount of homeless people living in tents in the downtowns of all major cities (here if a major city has like ~10 people sleeping outside in winter, that's bad, but the US is just shockingly bad) - the first time in their lives they were afraid of getting killed was in the US (e.g. interacting with the cops, walking through some neighborhoods) because people were carelessly carrying guns outside (there are guns in Europe, some countries like Switzerland have a ton of guns, but the way people manage guns in public, and that includes police, is radically different) - they were all astonished and the amount of fat people, and how fat they were. What people consider "fat" in Europe would probably be "normal" or maybe even "thin" in the US. You don't find in Europe people that are so fat that don't fit through the door of a bus. These are not narratives, these are facts that every European that lives or has lived in the US will happily tell you about. The US style of living is great if you have money, but Europeans measure their style of living by how the poorest people in their country live, not the richest people. By those measures, the US is an outrageous place for pretty much all European standards. > That's like saying Europe suffers from mass terrorist attacks and sexual assaults on young women. Do you think that's a made up narrative? Because everyone I know in Europe agrees that this is true, that these are horrible issues to have, and that these issues need fixing. Your argument that "the US has no issues because Europe has issues" is typically known as "whataboutism". Don't be a "whataboutist". It doesn't help fix neither Europe's nor USA's issues.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>Your argument that "the US has no issues because Europe has issues" is typically known as "whataboutism". Sorry, but wasn't grandparent's (u/allendoerfer) original post the one that started the whataboutism? I was just contradicting him with a mirrored whataboutism to prove why his way of thinking is wrong? Why are you only cherry picking mine? The topic was regarding one of Germany's failure, and Grandparent (u/allendoerfer) posted something along the lines of "at least in Germany we have have breathable air and drinkable water unlike Americans who get shot instead". What does that have to do with the Wirecard situation and how is that anything else but severe offtopic whataboutism? >Europeans measure their style of living by how the poorest people in their country live, not the richest people. No they don't, otherwise, the wealth-gap between rich and poor wouldn't be at an all-time high in Germany/Europe [1][2]. [1]https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/german-expat-news/inheritance-and-coronavirus-are-increasing-wealth-inequality-germany https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/german-expat-news/inherit... [2]https://www.dw.com/en/study-shows-growing-wealth-inequality-in-germany/av-54412300 https://www.dw.com/en/study-shows-growing-wealth-inequality-...
- volta83 6y ago
  > Sorry, but wasn't grandparent's original post the one that started the whataboutism? I was just contradicting him with a mirrored whataboutism to prove why his way of thinking is wrong? Why are you only cherry picking mine? The OP is making a trade-offs. They are arguing that they prefer the value proposition of living in Europe than that of living in the US. They don't seem to weight the downs of Europe or the pro's of the US much, so they are not mentioning them, which is IMO fair. We can argue about these pros and cons, whether they missed some, whether we weight them differently, etc. What I don't think is very helpful is just a straight "whataboutism" answer. You, me, and the OP are all different. What's a good value proposition for the OP might be bad for you and me. That's ok. It does not make the OP "wrong".
- allendoerfer 6y ago
  I wasn't even (only) refering to the US. I was trying to bring accross, that it's quite nice to live in Germany and that it does not need to be dominant or proud of anything as a nation. I was trying to list benefits Germans take as a given, but are actually not available everywhere in the world (which has almost 200 countries btw, not only US + Germany). As far as I know, US also has breathable air and is somewhat save in most places. It's just that the unsafest place in Germany is probably still safer than almost everywhere else in the world. The basics are okay in Germany and they matter, even if you don't think about them day to day. If you want more, go on and build it, nobody forbids you to do so. Society just provides a nice baseline and even tries to catch you, in case you fall.

tut-urut-utut 6y ago

> Why not pump some billions in local unskilled wages and stricter enforcement of regulations so that foreign workers won't have to get exploited by unscrupulous German businesses?[1] That would be for an actual good reason IMHO. Modern German economy is practically built on exploitation of foreign workers. First there was a slave labour during the WW2, then the exploitation of foreign workers during the "economic wonder" time after the war. Until now things didn't change much.

allendoerfer 6y ago
> then the exploitation of foreign workers during the "economic wonder" time after the war. Until now things didn't change much. I am not argueing that there is not abuse. But to force this narrative, you have to be already behind the "border wall" and therefor rich enough to be either nationalist ("no immigration!") or very naive ("just give them money!"). Either way in my mind you are putting yourself above the poor little people, who are in such misery. You do not think they are trying to do what's best for them? They are responsible for their own fortune and many of their children actually make it. Look at what is happening to Poland (one of the sources of immigration). Germany actively sends money there (through the EU), people working in Germany are effectively extracting money from Germany to Poland and the economy is growing like crazy (for European standards). Everyone benefits.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  > people working in Germany are effectively extracting money from Germany to Poland WTF?! How are Poles working in Germany effectively extracting money from Germany? They pay income taxes in Germany like everyone else. They are then free to do with their NET income what they please. There is no obligation to spend your after-tax income in the same country.
  - allendoerfer 6y ago
    People living in Poland (for the most part), but working in Germany ARE moving money to Poland. I am not angry about this. The same happens at the Swiss border with Germans. Everyone benefits, living conditions equalize, trade increases, everyone gets richer.

idownvoted 6y ago

Unwillingly the grandparent (allendoerfer) proves the Author's (Adrian Daub @TNR) point by resorting to whataboutism about America's shortcomings. What has the US to do at all with this specific failure of Germany? And how is such whataboutism rhethoricaly honest, if the those american shortcomings are usually informed by other Germans?

NautilusWave 6y ago

Your list of cliché European issues, are also Usonian issues...