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VW has just started selling their first "real" electric cars based on their all new platform. If that platform works out then Tesla is going to compete not aga

by yarcob 5y ago

VW has just started selling their first "real" electric cars based on their all new platform. If that platform works out then Tesla is going to compete not against one or two new models, but they'll suddenly compete against two dozen models. Unless VW fucks something up in the next year, I just don't know how Tesla expects to compete with them. Tesla only has a handful of high end cars; they have no family cars, no vans, no compact cars, no busses. VW is great at building models for every niche and at every price point. No matter what kind of car you want, VW (or Skoda or Audi) has multiple options for you. Tesla is currently still ahead, but I'm not sure they can match the breadth of VWs upcoming model palette (if VWs new platform works out).

chrisseaton 5y ago
> they have no family cars Why can’t you use a Tesla for a family car? Most of them have four seats. What else do you need for most families?
- deanak 5y ago
  A non-touchscreen way to operate windshield wipers. VW makes a car with an electric drivetrain, Tesla makes an electric drivetrain with a place to put people and things.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    I don’t really get what you mean, sorry? Why does a family need different wiper controls to a single person? And obviously you can put people and things in a Tesla.
    - easton 5y ago
      They’re saying that it’s not a real “car” unless there’s physical wiper controls.
      - jiofih 5y ago
        Or reins. Steering wheels are inaccurate and a dangerous invention, people have already died because of it.
    - deanak 5y ago
      So the person responsible for keeping their family alive doesn't look away from the road trying to perform a very common task. A car is designed around the idea that maintaining the driver's attention on the road is the primary function. I am not sure what is driving the design of Teslas for the newer models. I like Teslas in general, but their decision to remove things like buttons and stalks from their vehicles is both dangerous and stupid, and people have already died because of it.
      - gonzo41 5y ago
        There's a really great video about the cockpit design of fighter aircraft. Basically, everything is color coded and feel the same in every plane to avoid mistakes like what telsa is introducing.
      - jiofih 5y ago
        You’d imagine they would have engineers think about this stuff. Such dummies! Looking forward for that link of a death caused by operating the wipers. I haven’t touched mine (not Tesla) for years since they work automatically, maybe other families have special windshield wiper adjustment needs?
        deanak 5y ago
        https://www.tesladeaths.com/ https://www.tesladeaths.com/ https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/2/26/21154502/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crashes https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/2/26/21154502/tesla-autopilo... https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/01/waymo-ceo-tesla-is-not-a-competitor-at-all/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/01/waymo-ceo-tesla-is-not-... Tesla resists efforts to prevent distracted driving, and also resists the consistent call from regulators properly set expectations for the capabilities of its autopilot feature. People are dying as a result. You'll notice that you won't find the same articles about GM's SuperCruise feature, because they don't oversell the feature and have more safety measures in place to make sure drivers aren't distracted. Waymo's CEO even claims that Tesla isn't a competitor. There is an obvious conflict here, but he's not the only one saying that 1) Tesla will never have a fully autonomous driving system and 2) their existing autopilot feature is falsely advertised and dangerous.
  - zwily 5y ago
    My X has wiper controls on the stalk. Does that make it a real car for you?
    - deanak 5y ago
      https://electrek.co/2020/08/04/tesla-wiper-controls-ruled-illegal-germany-crashed/ https://electrek.co/2020/08/04/tesla-wiper-controls-ruled-il...
      - natch 5y ago
        That doesn’t take away the fact that the physical controls are there for the using. As well as automatic and voice controls. As with any car, if the driver chooses to look away from the road for any reason, they have to be responsible about it, and they did have other options here.
        deanak 5y ago
        As I said in another reply, Tesla is the only company advertising automated driving and other features that don't work in edge cases which is bad news for staying alive, even if you aren't the person driving a Tesla. They are also actively removing standard physical controls that have been around for decades, and through design, they are training people to rely on a touchscreen device that is not consistent or reliable. Sure there are people who also hit cruise control on a 96 Accord and expect it to drive itself, but Honda never told them that would work. These are the kind of realities Tesla should responsibly deal with as a mass market manufacturer, but they don't want to take the PR hit to accept accountability and potentially have to refund millions of dollars for a feature that doesn't work as advertised. They'd rather blame the drivers for as long as they can get away with it.
        natch 5y ago
        > training people to rely on a touchscreen device that is not consistent or reliable. This is a common misconception, easily avoided by getting some firsthand experience owning a Tesla. We literally do not use the touchscreen for driving. And for that matter, almost not at all while driving. As with any tool there will be those who misuse it and put others at risk. I look forward to hearing you give even a single example where a human driver was not to blame. And, preemptively so you won’t waste your own time, I don’t mean citing links where if you dig in you find that the link does not support your case. It’s true that over time people will learn to rely on controls less and less. The world has been through similar transitions with horse and buggy -> car for example. There will be accidents along the way but the end result will be a world with far fewer accidents. Its possible there is a better way to get to that world, but I haven’t thought of one. Perfect systems do not just spring up out of nowhere.
  - natch 5y ago
    Teslas have a physical button that controls the wipers when needed. They also can run automatically. Finally they also can be operated via the touch screen, but I never use this last option. You seem to think it’s the only option, but that’s not the case.
    - deanak 5y ago
      In every safety system, there is a point where human intervention can override automated activity. In almost every car these systems have standard tactile controls so you can override through muscle memory in an emergency without taking your eyes off the road. (If you haven't noticed, even the icons used on stalks and buttons are standardized across the industry as a matter of safety). In a Tesla, overriding the auto sense wiper feature is available through an interaction with the touch screen at the precise moment when a driver should not be distracted (ie, when they are having trouble seeing through the windshield). As far as I know, they are the only auto manufacturer that doesn't stick with standard stalks for things that affect visibility (wipers/headlights/turn signals, etc). This is why I don't think a Tesla is a feature complete car -- it simply lacks the common set of safety features found in every other modern vehicle.
      - natch 5y ago
        They are adding features all the time through software updates. I hope it is never feature complete, because I enjoy getting these updates!
      - natch 5y ago
        > available through an interaction with the touch screen Not exactly. It’s on the stalk as a physical button.
        deanak 5y ago
        https://electrek.co/2020/08/04/tesla-wiper-controls-ruled-illegal-germany-crashed/ https://electrek.co/2020/08/04/tesla-wiper-controls-ruled-il... > On Model 3 and Model Y vehicles, Tesla didn’t install normal windshield wiper settings through a steering wheel stalk. > Instead, the automaker is detecting the rain through its Autopilot cameras and automatically adjusting the speed based on the strength of the rainfall. > If the driver wants to adjust the speed, they need to do it through the center touchscreen. > The driver in Germany was adjusting those settings when he lost control of the vehicle and crashed.
- yarcob 5y ago
  With "family car" I meant something like the VW Touran. A somewhat affordable car that still has enough space for all the stuff you might want to take along, like strollers, backpacks, scooters, kid bikes, skis, helmets, boots whatever. (Not all of that at the same time obviously) There isn't really a great EV in that category yet, but I hope it's just a question of time. Obviously you can use any car as a family car, but my impression is that Teslas are more targeted at commuters (except maybe the Model X, but that's so expensive that it's not really an option for any family I know).
  - Poiesis 5y ago
    I see plenty of families in Teslas; it turns out there are lots of families who can afford it. A new Model S was too rich for my blood, so I picked one up used. Great family car. Massive amounts of storage. We're out of the stroller years but it would be great with a stroller.
  - AlgorithmicTime 5y ago
    VW doesn't sell the Touran in the US.
  - jiofih 5y ago
    That’s exactly what the Model Y and Model X are. Both beat an ID4 in cargo volume without even counting the frunk (which VWs don’t have). Even the smaller Model 3 is plenty for a 4-person family, while it doesn’t beat in liters because of ceiling height the trunk is very spacious.
    - yarcob 5y ago
      I guess I should have avoided the term "family car", since there are lots of different types of cars that are suitable as a family car. So I searched Wikipedia and the types of car I was thinking about are apparently called "Compact MPV" [1]. My thinking was that these cars are mostly targeted at families, so I called them "family cars", but apparently people have different ideas what a family car is. My point was that VW is going to end up building a large number of different EVs in the next couple of years, and Tesla will face the problem that each of their models will have to compete with 3 models from VW. No matter what model Tesla your interested in, there will be a car from the VW group with slightly more space, and one that's cheaper, and maybe one that's a bit sportier. It's going to be very different from now, where there's very little competition to Tesla (if you want an EV) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_MPV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_MPV
natch 5y ago
Superchargers.
lofi_lory 5y ago
As a German, I don't see VW getting it together rapidly. Germany doesn't get life in #Neuland. VW and most of the German industry are respective leaders in some niche by being good at through mechanical engineering IP. Electrical cars are simple. Innovation is in software, DRM business models and battery tech which is all completely foreign to the German industry. People here get Teslas for the charging infrastructure alone, as the alternative is a huge mess. Don't forget, VW is still trying hard to lobby for their known turf, pushing for hybrids and hydrogen combustion mechanical marvels... Germany doesn't get it. The pandemic has shown, the era of old white me... industrialist has forced the country between a rock and a hard place. While Musk is shooting consumer internet into space, our leaders had long, exhausting talks, recognizing Germany's need to modernize and embrace technical progression and they fearlessly concluded: It's time to let go of fax by 2030.
- soramimo 5y ago
  German here as well. In general, I share your pessimism. One thing to point out about VW is that their CEO, Herbert Diess, seems to get it. To name two anecdotal pieces of evidence, Elon had asked him to become CEO of Tesla back in 2015 [1] and he had conversations with Chinese battery supplier CATL about car batteries as far back as ten years ago [2]. [1] https://electrek.co/2021/04/13/ceo-elon-musk-reportedly-hire-vw-herbert-diess-tesla-ceo/ https://electrek.co/2021/04/13/ceo-elon-musk-reportedly-hire... [2] https://www.teslarati.com/volkswagen-herbert-diess-ev-cell-production-40-plants/ https://www.teslarati.com/volkswagen-herbert-diess-ev-cell-p...
  - lofi_lory 5y ago
    I don't know... This year I lost all hope for Germany's future. This goes beyond VW. Until now, I kinda thought everything is going to be alright, Germany is a rich country and all. I wasn't aware of the extend of moral corruption in the CDU. They really eroded the whole country for personal gains. I've never been this disappointed and disillusioned by politics and society as I am for the last few month.
    - soramimo 5y ago
marvin 5y ago
They won’t be able to compete on price, because they’ll be bidding for batteries on the open market along with everybody else. Takes another 5 years to build out capacity, and who knows what Tesla will have accomplished by then.

by yarcob 5y ago

chrisseaton 5y ago

> they have no family cars Why can’t you use a Tesla for a family car? Most of them have four seats. What else do you need for most families?

deanak 5y ago
A non-touchscreen way to operate windshield wipers. VW makes a car with an electric drivetrain, Tesla makes an electric drivetrain with a place to put people and things.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  I don’t really get what you mean, sorry? Why does a family need different wiper controls to a single person? And obviously you can put people and things in a Tesla.
  - easton 5y ago
    They’re saying that it’s not a real “car” unless there’s physical wiper controls.
    - jiofih 5y ago
      Or reins. Steering wheels are inaccurate and a dangerous invention, people have already died because of it.
  - deanak 5y ago
    So the person responsible for keeping their family alive doesn't look away from the road trying to perform a very common task. A car is designed around the idea that maintaining the driver's attention on the road is the primary function. I am not sure what is driving the design of Teslas for the newer models. I like Teslas in general, but their decision to remove things like buttons and stalks from their vehicles is both dangerous and stupid, and people have already died because of it.
    - gonzo41 5y ago
      There's a really great video about the cockpit design of fighter aircraft. Basically, everything is color coded and feel the same in every plane to avoid mistakes like what telsa is introducing.
    - jiofih 5y ago
      You’d imagine they would have engineers think about this stuff. Such dummies! Looking forward for that link of a death caused by operating the wipers. I haven’t touched mine (not Tesla) for years since they work automatically, maybe other families have special windshield wiper adjustment needs?
      - deanak 5y ago
        https://www.tesladeaths.com/ https://www.tesladeaths.com/ https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/2/26/21154502/tesla-autopilot-fatal-crashes https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/2/26/21154502/tesla-autopilo... https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/01/waymo-ceo-tesla-is-not-a-competitor-at-all/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/01/waymo-ceo-tesla-is-not-... Tesla resists efforts to prevent distracted driving, and also resists the consistent call from regulators properly set expectations for the capabilities of its autopilot feature. People are dying as a result. You'll notice that you won't find the same articles about GM's SuperCruise feature, because they don't oversell the feature and have more safety measures in place to make sure drivers aren't distracted. Waymo's CEO even claims that Tesla isn't a competitor. There is an obvious conflict here, but he's not the only one saying that 1) Tesla will never have a fully autonomous driving system and 2) their existing autopilot feature is falsely advertised and dangerous.
- zwily 5y ago
  My X has wiper controls on the stalk. Does that make it a real car for you?
  - deanak 5y ago
    https://electrek.co/2020/08/04/tesla-wiper-controls-ruled-illegal-germany-crashed/ https://electrek.co/2020/08/04/tesla-wiper-controls-ruled-il...
    - natch 5y ago
      That doesn’t take away the fact that the physical controls are there for the using. As well as automatic and voice controls. As with any car, if the driver chooses to look away from the road for any reason, they have to be responsible about it, and they did have other options here.
      - deanak 5y ago
        As I said in another reply, Tesla is the only company advertising automated driving and other features that don't work in edge cases which is bad news for staying alive, even if you aren't the person driving a Tesla. They are also actively removing standard physical controls that have been around for decades, and through design, they are training people to rely on a touchscreen device that is not consistent or reliable. Sure there are people who also hit cruise control on a 96 Accord and expect it to drive itself, but Honda never told them that would work. These are the kind of realities Tesla should responsibly deal with as a mass market manufacturer, but they don't want to take the PR hit to accept accountability and potentially have to refund millions of dollars for a feature that doesn't work as advertised. They'd rather blame the drivers for as long as they can get away with it.
        natch 5y ago
        > training people to rely on a touchscreen device that is not consistent or reliable. This is a common misconception, easily avoided by getting some firsthand experience owning a Tesla. We literally do not use the touchscreen for driving. And for that matter, almost not at all while driving. As with any tool there will be those who misuse it and put others at risk. I look forward to hearing you give even a single example where a human driver was not to blame. And, preemptively so you won’t waste your own time, I don’t mean citing links where if you dig in you find that the link does not support your case. It’s true that over time people will learn to rely on controls less and less. The world has been through similar transitions with horse and buggy -> car for example. There will be accidents along the way but the end result will be a world with far fewer accidents. Its possible there is a better way to get to that world, but I haven’t thought of one. Perfect systems do not just spring up out of nowhere.
- natch 5y ago
  Teslas have a physical button that controls the wipers when needed. They also can run automatically. Finally they also can be operated via the touch screen, but I never use this last option. You seem to think it’s the only option, but that’s not the case.
  - deanak 5y ago
    In every safety system, there is a point where human intervention can override automated activity. In almost every car these systems have standard tactile controls so you can override through muscle memory in an emergency without taking your eyes off the road. (If you haven't noticed, even the icons used on stalks and buttons are standardized across the industry as a matter of safety). In a Tesla, overriding the auto sense wiper feature is available through an interaction with the touch screen at the precise moment when a driver should not be distracted (ie, when they are having trouble seeing through the windshield). As far as I know, they are the only auto manufacturer that doesn't stick with standard stalks for things that affect visibility (wipers/headlights/turn signals, etc). This is why I don't think a Tesla is a feature complete car -- it simply lacks the common set of safety features found in every other modern vehicle.
    - natch 5y ago
      They are adding features all the time through software updates. I hope it is never feature complete, because I enjoy getting these updates!
    - natch 5y ago
      > available through an interaction with the touch screen Not exactly. It’s on the stalk as a physical button.
      - deanak 5y ago
        https://electrek.co/2020/08/04/tesla-wiper-controls-ruled-illegal-germany-crashed/ https://electrek.co/2020/08/04/tesla-wiper-controls-ruled-il... > On Model 3 and Model Y vehicles, Tesla didn’t install normal windshield wiper settings through a steering wheel stalk. > Instead, the automaker is detecting the rain through its Autopilot cameras and automatically adjusting the speed based on the strength of the rainfall. > If the driver wants to adjust the speed, they need to do it through the center touchscreen. > The driver in Germany was adjusting those settings when he lost control of the vehicle and crashed.
yarcob 5y ago
With "family car" I meant something like the VW Touran. A somewhat affordable car that still has enough space for all the stuff you might want to take along, like strollers, backpacks, scooters, kid bikes, skis, helmets, boots whatever. (Not all of that at the same time obviously) There isn't really a great EV in that category yet, but I hope it's just a question of time. Obviously you can use any car as a family car, but my impression is that Teslas are more targeted at commuters (except maybe the Model X, but that's so expensive that it's not really an option for any family I know).
- Poiesis 5y ago
  I see plenty of families in Teslas; it turns out there are lots of families who can afford it. A new Model S was too rich for my blood, so I picked one up used. Great family car. Massive amounts of storage. We're out of the stroller years but it would be great with a stroller.
- AlgorithmicTime 5y ago
  VW doesn't sell the Touran in the US.
- jiofih 5y ago
  That’s exactly what the Model Y and Model X are. Both beat an ID4 in cargo volume without even counting the frunk (which VWs don’t have). Even the smaller Model 3 is plenty for a 4-person family, while it doesn’t beat in liters because of ceiling height the trunk is very spacious.
  - yarcob 5y ago
    I guess I should have avoided the term "family car", since there are lots of different types of cars that are suitable as a family car. So I searched Wikipedia and the types of car I was thinking about are apparently called "Compact MPV" [1]. My thinking was that these cars are mostly targeted at families, so I called them "family cars", but apparently people have different ideas what a family car is. My point was that VW is going to end up building a large number of different EVs in the next couple of years, and Tesla will face the problem that each of their models will have to compete with 3 models from VW. No matter what model Tesla your interested in, there will be a car from the VW group with slightly more space, and one that's cheaper, and maybe one that's a bit sportier. It's going to be very different from now, where there's very little competition to Tesla (if you want an EV) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_MPV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_MPV

natch 5y ago

Superchargers.

lofi_lory 5y ago

As a German, I don't see VW getting it together rapidly. Germany doesn't get life in #Neuland. VW and most of the German industry are respective leaders in some niche by being good at through mechanical engineering IP. Electrical cars are simple. Innovation is in software, DRM business models and battery tech which is all completely foreign to the German industry. People here get Teslas for the charging infrastructure alone, as the alternative is a huge mess. Don't forget, VW is still trying hard to lobby for their known turf, pushing for hybrids and hydrogen combustion mechanical marvels... Germany doesn't get it. The pandemic has shown, the era of old white me... industrialist has forced the country between a rock and a hard place. While Musk is shooting consumer internet into space, our leaders had long, exhausting talks, recognizing Germany's need to modernize and embrace technical progression and they fearlessly concluded: It's time to let go of fax by 2030.

soramimo 5y ago
German here as well. In general, I share your pessimism. One thing to point out about VW is that their CEO, Herbert Diess, seems to get it. To name two anecdotal pieces of evidence, Elon had asked him to become CEO of Tesla back in 2015 [1] and he had conversations with Chinese battery supplier CATL about car batteries as far back as ten years ago [2]. [1] https://electrek.co/2021/04/13/ceo-elon-musk-reportedly-hire-vw-herbert-diess-tesla-ceo/ https://electrek.co/2021/04/13/ceo-elon-musk-reportedly-hire... [2] https://www.teslarati.com/volkswagen-herbert-diess-ev-cell-production-40-plants/ https://www.teslarati.com/volkswagen-herbert-diess-ev-cell-p...
- lofi_lory 5y ago
  I don't know... This year I lost all hope for Germany's future. This goes beyond VW. Until now, I kinda thought everything is going to be alright, Germany is a rich country and all. I wasn't aware of the extend of moral corruption in the CDU. They really eroded the whole country for personal gains. I've never been this disappointed and disillusioned by politics and society as I am for the last few month.
  - soramimo 5y ago

marvin 5y ago

They won’t be able to compete on price, because they’ll be bidding for batteries on the open market along with everybody else. Takes another 5 years to build out capacity, and who knows what Tesla will have accomplished by then.