7 ms·

That's a position of privilege. Only people who aren't discriminated against can afford to take a position of indifference.

by ck425 5y ago

koonsolo 5y ago
I am not indifferent towards people who discriminate, whether that is positive or negative discrimination. But thankfully those people are a minority.
- motoxpro 5y ago
  I mean, I think this is like saying it's O.K. to not care about climate change because we have done enough and it's not a problem anymore. i.e. It's way better than it was and it doesn't effect me so I can live my life however I want, I am not worried about the future generations that may have that problem because of my actions. In this situation, you are saying it doesn't effect you so you have the privelege of not caring. Totally fair! Wish everyone were in that position.
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    You don't seem to get my point: everyone should care about the environment, and nobody should care about the color of your skin. Edit: let me be more specific. In a company, I don't want to hear "Are the women compensated the same as the men?", I want to hear "Is everyone fairly compensated?". There is a very big difference between the 2.
    - ljm 5y ago
      I see what you're getting at, and yeah that sort of just world would be nice. You could ask "is everyone fairly compensated?" now though, and many people would not think to consider the various disparities that exist - the current system, to their mind, is fair. So you have to look at the data, gather the facts, and force the issue: --- Is everyone fairly compensated? Yes But, it looks like a woman is paid 20% less than a man for the same position. Is everyone fairly compensated? Yes. (Insert sexist reasoning here). Are women compensated the same as men? No. Why is that fair? --- You could repeat this same thought process for so many other examples, where the general concept of fairness is rooted in inequality, bias, and prejudice.
    - cutemonster 5y ago
      (Just FYI, I also actually didn't understand what you meant. Thanks for the follow up and explanation)
thu2111 5y ago
Most guys I know in the tech industry see it rather differently. The way they (we) see it is simple: there is rampant illegal discrimination in tech, and it's all against straight white guys like us. That's Europe. In the USA you'd probably include Asians too. Nonetheless I don't know a single guy who argues for affirmative action in favour of straight white guys: everyone argues for simply caring only about who does good work and damn the rest. That's not a position of indifference of course, it's a strongly held belief. Look at this very thread. Just a few posts above this one is a guy who says he works at a firm where 40% of all recruitment efforts have to be for female engineers. Those sorts of policies are everywhere. That's actual, concrete discrimination. Firms put bonus pots aside for women, they set up competitions and career opportunities from which men are banned. Men are being barred from board positions and top executive roles all over the place. At the last place I worked, after firing the head of sales the CEO announced at a company all hands that the next head of sales had to be a woman, and that's why the firm had been without one for so many months. It's of course illegal but the agencies that enforce these laws are run by people steeped in identity politics, so they aren't enforced. When one was finally located she turned out to be wildly incompetent. In the first management offsite she got up and said she had no idea why anyone bought our product. She didn't mean this in a "the product is bad, I'll shock them out of denial" way. She meant it in the sense that she really didn't understand what the product actually did (it was a rather obscure product for software developers). In a sales meeting with a customer she started trying to convince the customer not to use our product, apparently without realising she was doing so. The prior male head of sales had been fired simply for displaying low energy, this woman is of course un-fireable despite demonstrating repeatedly she has zero understanding of the companies products! That same company invited a third party training company to use the offices at the weekend to run programming classes. These classes were open to everyone except straight, white men. I kid you not, that was the actual rule. If you were a white male you were expected to bring social media evidence that you were gay. Like, photos of you making out with other men or something like that. The justification for this was to keep the lessons "safe". Myself and my (gay) manager went to HR to complain, the head of HR spent 30 minutes trying to defend it. There was no apology and nothing was done about it. This stuff is routine, it is daily life. It passes by without notice. If even one of these things happened in the reverse direction at a large company it'd make international news. It's this kind of poisonous ideology that Basecamp are trying to expunge from their firm with this announcement, and what can the average man do but applaud? Who doesn't want to just come to work and have peaceful relations with their co-workers, regardless of race or gender? Only leftist activists, and which firms really need them? They're far more trouble than they're worth.
rakoo 5y ago
I legitimately believe that "not giving a fuck about differences" is the goal we should all aim for. Yes, I am lucky that I can afford this mindset, but if I want everyone to also benefit from this privilege (such that it isn't a privilege anymore, but the standard), how do I do ? I live in a country where the differences are handled almost the exact opposite to what is done in the US. Instead of spreading positive discrimination that reinforces the idea that we're all different and actually promoting communautarism, we believe that our differences are fundamentally a private matter and when we want to build something together we leverage our common interest and values. It's all idealistic but in practice our racism isn't as widespread and brutal as other places, which is why I'm convinced it is the right way to follow
- madeofpalk 5y ago
  "not giving a fuck about differences" is 100% the goal. But there are differences, so ignoring them is just sticking your head in the sand.
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    I agree that there are differences. I also agree that minorities deal with discrimination. But the solution is relentlessly not giving a fuck, and now comes the big part: also making sure everyone else doesn't give a fuck (about the differences). This last part is crucial for not being indifferent or sticking your head in the sand. We ignore the differences, but we don't ignore the bastards that do take those differences into account.
    - madeofpalk 5y ago
      I don't know, sounds pretty political. Talk of this is probably banned at Basecamp.
    - koonsolo 5y ago
      > I don't know, sounds pretty political. Talk of this is probably banned at Basecamp. I'm sure discrimination is banned at Basecamp.
ryandrake 5y ago
I don't even understand what "privilege" means anymore. I used to, but it now just seems to be a word that gets thrown down to try to end the conversation, whenever someone's arguing with a white guy. How did we get to this point where you can't even have a valid opinion about something if you're coming from some position of privilege?
- theshrike79 5y ago
  It seems to be the result of a multi-dimensional formula taking into account every possible variable you can imagine. Is kind of like a Credit Score, but determined by Twitter. The process is opaque and you cannot dispute it. You also can't get your Privilege Score beforehand, but you WILL be told your relative Privilege Position compared to other people if you say something wrong.
- educaysean 5y ago
  Your opinion is valid regardless of your privilege. When it comes to discussing specific experiences that minorities face, however, you should defer to the experts in the area who have lived their entire lives being in the seat of discrimination. Hope that made sense.
  - cutemonster 5y ago
    It sounds to me as if you think someone who hasn't been discriminated against, cannot have any meaningful thoughts. As if a social worker could only help out with problems s/he had experienced him/herself already. > Hope that made sense. A bit, not that much
    - educaysean 5y ago
      You can put words in my mouth all day but here is exactly what I wrote. > When it comes to discussing specific experiences that minorities face, however, you should defer to the experts in the area who have lived their entire lives being in the seat of discrimination. We all appreciate attempts to understand and empathize with us. You can go very far by talking with us and trying to place yourself in our shoes, but we don't appreciate it when you talk over us, attempt to silence our voices, or, case in point, put words in our mouths and exaggerate our points beyond recognition. Please try and engage this topic in good faith and not through pedantics and wordplay. If you fundamentally disagree that the victims of discrimination should have the loudest voice in the matter, I'd love to talk further.
throwaway0xa 5y ago
You have it backwards. The only people who can politicize anything and everything are "minority groups". Only people who aren't discriminated against can afford to take a position of politicizing everything. That's a position of privilege.

That's a position of privilege. Only people who aren't discriminated against can afford to take a position of indifference.

by ck425 5y ago

That's a position of privilege. Only people who aren't discriminated against can afford to take a position of indifference.

koonsolo 5y ago

I am not indifferent towards people who discriminate, whether that is positive or negative discrimination. But thankfully those people are a minority.

motoxpro 5y ago
I mean, I think this is like saying it's O.K. to not care about climate change because we have done enough and it's not a problem anymore. i.e. It's way better than it was and it doesn't effect me so I can live my life however I want, I am not worried about the future generations that may have that problem because of my actions. In this situation, you are saying it doesn't effect you so you have the privelege of not caring. Totally fair! Wish everyone were in that position.
- koonsolo 5y ago
  You don't seem to get my point: everyone should care about the environment, and nobody should care about the color of your skin. Edit: let me be more specific. In a company, I don't want to hear "Are the women compensated the same as the men?", I want to hear "Is everyone fairly compensated?". There is a very big difference between the 2.
  - ljm 5y ago
    I see what you're getting at, and yeah that sort of just world would be nice. You could ask "is everyone fairly compensated?" now though, and many people would not think to consider the various disparities that exist - the current system, to their mind, is fair. So you have to look at the data, gather the facts, and force the issue: --- Is everyone fairly compensated? Yes But, it looks like a woman is paid 20% less than a man for the same position. Is everyone fairly compensated? Yes. (Insert sexist reasoning here). Are women compensated the same as men? No. Why is that fair? --- You could repeat this same thought process for so many other examples, where the general concept of fairness is rooted in inequality, bias, and prejudice.
  - cutemonster 5y ago
    (Just FYI, I also actually didn't understand what you meant. Thanks for the follow up and explanation)

thu2111 5y ago

Most guys I know in the tech industry see it rather differently. The way they (we) see it is simple: there is rampant illegal discrimination in tech, and it's all against straight white guys like us. That's Europe. In the USA you'd probably include Asians too. Nonetheless I don't know a single guy who argues for affirmative action in favour of straight white guys: everyone argues for simply caring only about who does good work and damn the rest. That's not a position of indifference of course, it's a strongly held belief. Look at this very thread. Just a few posts above this one is a guy who says he works at a firm where 40% of all recruitment efforts have to be for female engineers. Those sorts of policies are everywhere. That's actual, concrete discrimination. Firms put bonus pots aside for women, they set up competitions and career opportunities from which men are banned. Men are being barred from board positions and top executive roles all over the place. At the last place I worked, after firing the head of sales the CEO announced at a company all hands that the next head of sales had to be a woman, and that's why the firm had been without one for so many months. It's of course illegal but the agencies that enforce these laws are run by people steeped in identity politics, so they aren't enforced. When one was finally located she turned out to be wildly incompetent. In the first management offsite she got up and said she had no idea why anyone bought our product. She didn't mean this in a "the product is bad, I'll shock them out of denial" way. She meant it in the sense that she really didn't understand what the product actually did (it was a rather obscure product for software developers). In a sales meeting with a customer she started trying to convince the customer not to use our product, apparently without realising she was doing so. The prior male head of sales had been fired simply for displaying low energy, this woman is of course un-fireable despite demonstrating repeatedly she has zero understanding of the companies products! That same company invited a third party training company to use the offices at the weekend to run programming classes. These classes were open to everyone except straight, white men. I kid you not, that was the actual rule. If you were a white male you were expected to bring social media evidence that you were gay. Like, photos of you making out with other men or something like that. The justification for this was to keep the lessons "safe". Myself and my (gay) manager went to HR to complain, the head of HR spent 30 minutes trying to defend it. There was no apology and nothing was done about it. This stuff is routine, it is daily life. It passes by without notice. If even one of these things happened in the reverse direction at a large company it'd make international news. It's this kind of poisonous ideology that Basecamp are trying to expunge from their firm with this announcement, and what can the average man do but applaud? Who doesn't want to just come to work and have peaceful relations with their co-workers, regardless of race or gender? Only leftist activists, and which firms really need them? They're far more trouble than they're worth.

rakoo 5y ago

I legitimately believe that "not giving a fuck about differences" is the goal we should all aim for. Yes, I am lucky that I can afford this mindset, but if I want everyone to also benefit from this privilege (such that it isn't a privilege anymore, but the standard), how do I do ? I live in a country where the differences are handled almost the exact opposite to what is done in the US. Instead of spreading positive discrimination that reinforces the idea that we're all different and actually promoting communautarism, we believe that our differences are fundamentally a private matter and when we want to build something together we leverage our common interest and values. It's all idealistic but in practice our racism isn't as widespread and brutal as other places, which is why I'm convinced it is the right way to follow

madeofpalk 5y ago
"not giving a fuck about differences" is 100% the goal. But there are differences, so ignoring them is just sticking your head in the sand.
- koonsolo 5y ago
  I agree that there are differences. I also agree that minorities deal with discrimination. But the solution is relentlessly not giving a fuck, and now comes the big part: also making sure everyone else doesn't give a fuck (about the differences). This last part is crucial for not being indifferent or sticking your head in the sand. We ignore the differences, but we don't ignore the bastards that do take those differences into account.
  - madeofpalk 5y ago
    I don't know, sounds pretty political. Talk of this is probably banned at Basecamp.
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    > I don't know, sounds pretty political. Talk of this is probably banned at Basecamp. I'm sure discrimination is banned at Basecamp.

ryandrake 5y ago

I don't even understand what "privilege" means anymore. I used to, but it now just seems to be a word that gets thrown down to try to end the conversation, whenever someone's arguing with a white guy. How did we get to this point where you can't even have a valid opinion about something if you're coming from some position of privilege?

theshrike79 5y ago
It seems to be the result of a multi-dimensional formula taking into account every possible variable you can imagine. Is kind of like a Credit Score, but determined by Twitter. The process is opaque and you cannot dispute it. You also can't get your Privilege Score beforehand, but you WILL be told your relative Privilege Position compared to other people if you say something wrong.
educaysean 5y ago
Your opinion is valid regardless of your privilege. When it comes to discussing specific experiences that minorities face, however, you should defer to the experts in the area who have lived their entire lives being in the seat of discrimination. Hope that made sense.
- cutemonster 5y ago
  It sounds to me as if you think someone who hasn't been discriminated against, cannot have any meaningful thoughts. As if a social worker could only help out with problems s/he had experienced him/herself already. > Hope that made sense. A bit, not that much
  - educaysean 5y ago
    You can put words in my mouth all day but here is exactly what I wrote. > When it comes to discussing specific experiences that minorities face, however, you should defer to the experts in the area who have lived their entire lives being in the seat of discrimination. We all appreciate attempts to understand and empathize with us. You can go very far by talking with us and trying to place yourself in our shoes, but we don't appreciate it when you talk over us, attempt to silence our voices, or, case in point, put words in our mouths and exaggerate our points beyond recognition. Please try and engage this topic in good faith and not through pedantics and wordplay. If you fundamentally disagree that the victims of discrimination should have the loudest voice in the matter, I'd love to talk further.

throwaway0xa 5y ago

You have it backwards. The only people who can politicize anything and everything are "minority groups". Only people who aren't discriminated against can afford to take a position of politicizing everything. That's a position of privilege.