5 ms·

For what I know the main argument against td is that tables are for data, not for layout.

sodapopcan 6y ago
Right, I’m not arguing for using it, I’m pointing out that easy vertical alignment has existed in some form since the 90s, so why did it take so long for a semantic version to make it into CSS? (ie, not the display:table version in the sibling comment)
- goto11 6y ago
  What do you mean "semantic"? CSS is for presentation, not semantics.
  - sodapopcan 6y ago
    Like, before the best way to do it in CSS was the change the display type of an element to a “table cell” even if it’s not a part of a table. I mean, changing it to “flex” or “grid” doesn’t make much sense either, really, I rather just have a box with vertically aligned content. I dunno, am I using the word semantic wrong?
    - goto11 6y ago
      OK I agree it was not intuitive to change the display-type to table-cell just in order to vertically center content. It basically mirrored how you would would vertically center in presentational HTML, except you didn't need to misuse the semantics of the table element (which is why I was initially confused by your comment about semantics.) The flex-box approach is the most intuitive in my opinion. The flex display-type basically means you want to distribute the area of a box among its immediate child elements, and control how the children and aligned relative to the container and each other. Centering is naturally part of this. Using grid is IMHO less intuitive, since a grid with a single cell seem just as much a hack as a table with a single cell.
      - sodapopcan 6y ago
        Yep, I do agree that of any of them, flex makes the most sense from a language standpoint.
chalcolithic 6y ago
We generally don't remember how bad the internet search was before Google came along, but it was really, really bad. I have zero evidence but I'm pretty sure that some time ago some industry heavyweights asked themselves "Why the search in the apps works fine but the internet search is broken? Is it because the apps have the intimate knowledge of the structure of their data and the search engines don't? Shouldn't we convey to them that structure?". Thus the idea of the Semantic Web was born, using tables for layout became cardinal sin and we entered the long Dark Age of trying to wrestle floats into doing something they never could really do. Then along came Google and made it all obsolete, but the priests of Semantic Web had too much fun torturing mere mortals that they stretched the Dark Age up until the adoption of the Grid Layout. When I hear someone saying that tables are for data and should not be used for layout I want to punch them. Yes, I've been that bitter for two decades.
- sodapopcan 6y ago
  Haha, ya, in the end, tables are still the simplest to reason about when it comes to layout! I kept using them long past when we weren't supposed to since the whole float thing was a mess and compatibility was still a big issue. While it's a ton of markup, tables are build upon a few easy-to-remember concepts and you can do anything (including vertically align without googling!). I'm still constantly looking up flex and grid rules. That said, I did move on.

Right, I’m not arguing for using it, I’m pointing out that easy vertical alignment has existed in some form since the 90s, so why did it take so long for a semantic version to make it into CSS? (ie, not the display:table version in the sibling comment)

goto11 6y ago
What do you mean "semantic"? CSS is for presentation, not semantics.
- sodapopcan 6y ago
  Like, before the best way to do it in CSS was the change the display type of an element to a “table cell” even if it’s not a part of a table. I mean, changing it to “flex” or “grid” doesn’t make much sense either, really, I rather just have a box with vertically aligned content. I dunno, am I using the word semantic wrong?
  - goto11 6y ago
    OK I agree it was not intuitive to change the display-type to table-cell just in order to vertically center content. It basically mirrored how you would would vertically center in presentational HTML, except you didn't need to misuse the semantics of the table element (which is why I was initially confused by your comment about semantics.) The flex-box approach is the most intuitive in my opinion. The flex display-type basically means you want to distribute the area of a box among its immediate child elements, and control how the children and aligned relative to the container and each other. Centering is naturally part of this. Using grid is IMHO less intuitive, since a grid with a single cell seem just as much a hack as a table with a single cell.
    - sodapopcan 6y ago
      Yep, I do agree that of any of them, flex makes the most sense from a language standpoint.

chalcolithic 6y ago

We generally don't remember how bad the internet search was before Google came along, but it was really, really bad. I have zero evidence but I'm pretty sure that some time ago some industry heavyweights asked themselves "Why the search in the apps works fine but the internet search is broken? Is it because the apps have the intimate knowledge of the structure of their data and the search engines don't? Shouldn't we convey to them that structure?". Thus the idea of the Semantic Web was born, using tables for layout became cardinal sin and we entered the long Dark Age of trying to wrestle floats into doing something they never could really do. Then along came Google and made it all obsolete, but the priests of Semantic Web had too much fun torturing mere mortals that they stretched the Dark Age up until the adoption of the Grid Layout. When I hear someone saying that tables are for data and should not be used for layout I want to punch them. Yes, I've been that bitter for two decades.

sodapopcan 6y ago
Haha, ya, in the end, tables are still the simplest to reason about when it comes to layout! I kept using them long past when we weren't supposed to since the whole float thing was a mess and compatibility was still a big issue. While it's a ton of markup, tables are build upon a few easy-to-remember concepts and you can do anything (including vertically align without googling!). I'm still constantly looking up flex and grid rules. That said, I did move on.