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Wow, I must admit I would probably never invest so much into a place I am just renting. Your landlord won the lottery. Still, it makes me feel uncomfortable. Y

by Tichy 15y ago

Wow, I must admit I would probably never invest so much into a place I am just renting. Your landlord won the lottery. Still, it makes me feel uncomfortable. Yes, society is cheering on the people who sacrifice themselves (just watch any movie from the US, that message gets driven home with a sledge hammer). But I doubt that is for the best of the individual. Of course people are cheering if they get something out of you for free.

thaumaturgy 15y ago
Hmm. I'm not sure how to respond, honestly. I don't feel like I'm investing into a place I'm renting; I feel like I'm investing into my home, and by extension, myself. Every time I walk outside, I feel like I've accomplished something, even if it's a relatively small thing. No matter how anything else is going in my life, that feeling is still there. If the owners decided to boot us out this month and sell the place for more than they could have otherwise, or even rent it out to someone else now that they can get more for the rent, I still would not feel like I had done something foolish. I still, for a while, will have made a place better. Even if new tenants or owners stopped maintaining it and let it go to ruin, that would only be a decision they have made, and still not change what I had done. It's made the other people in the neighborhood happy. It's made me happy. It's made the landlords happy. Maybe I could have spent the time and money on something else, but that's true no matter what I do. So, why not do something that makes so many people happy? > Yes, society is cheering on the people who sacrifice themselves... On my good days, I think that might be because society is looking for leaders that they can look up to. On my bad days, I think that might be because society has gotten lazy and just wants someone else to take care of it. > But I doubt that is for the best of the individual. It might not be best for many individuals, because it's easy to feel like you're being taken advantage of, or that you're giving up something you shouldn't be. But, for some individuals -- a growing number of them, I hope -- some forms of sacrifice can be so rewarding that it doesn't feel at all like sacrifice. > Of course people are cheering if they get something out of you for free. Sure, but maybe you're getting to do something you enjoy anyway. If you go out for a hike or visit a river or beach, why not pick up some trash while you're out there? If you're going to live in a home, why not improve it a bit while you're there? If you're going to get together with some friends, why not bring some food? And if people cheer you on for that, is that so bad? Anyway, the most powerful motivation, for me, is that I can see as clearly as if I were living in it now a world in which everyone else did things like this -- looked out for each-other, helped each-other up, cleaned up and improved the things around them, and invested in great little bistros and sandwich shops and bookstores and parks and such because they recognized the value of having such things in their community. I've found that it's impossible to tell anyone else what that kind of world looks like, or to get them to believe in it by talking about it. So, instead, I try to make it. One run-down house at a time. :-)
- Tichy 15y ago
  If you are happy, who am I to argue with that. Maybe you just really like your landlord. "living in it now a world in which everyone else did things like this -- looked out for each-other, helped each-other up, cleaned up and improved the things around them, and invested in great little bistros and sandwich shops and bookstores and parks and such because they recognized the value of having such things in their community." I like that, except for the part where the house still belongs to the landlord, not to the community or you. I would pick up trash in the mountains, because the mountains belong to everyone (or the government, which in theory is everyone). With the sandwich shops, I think capitalism could deliver: if people would realize the value of having sandwich shops in the park, they would perhaps be willing to pay for sandwiches, making it profitable to build nice sandwich shops. Sandwich shop owners as well as people living near the park would be motivated to keep it nice, as it would improve both the sandwich shop and the value of the houses around it. Maybe there are aspects of what you are doing that I don't see, though. As long as the landlord lets you live there, maybe you get to live in a nice place for a low rent. If you ever have to move, your landlord might write you a glowing letter of recommendation and make it easy for you to find another nice place. Then again, as they seem of the "not caring" kind, maybe they won't :-/
  - thaumaturgy 15y ago
    I'm seriously amused by your last paragraph. It actually made me smile, because, despite explaining precisely why I'm doing this kind of stuff, you're still looking for the "angle", and that's the best example of why I find this attitude so difficult to communicate in an effective way to so many other people (and why I've all but given up at it). Yes, I am now living in a place with lower rent than I might be otherwise, but the rent is not lower than the total amount of money and time I have put into it; yes, the landlords might write an amazing letter of recommendation, but my experience so far has been that it's nearly impossible to wrest any kind of letter out of a landlord, no matter how good your relationship. As far as capitalism goes ... y'know, I don't dislike it, but I don't think it's an answer to everyone's needs, either. In order to work, capitalism requires that everything have a measurable, monetary value, and that most people agree on that value. Talk about the Mona Lisa to a capitalist, and the capitalist will tell you that whatever is spent on insuring and protecting the Mona Lisa is representative of its value; talk about the Mona Lisa to an art expert, and they'll use a term that is utterly foreign to a capitalist: "priceless". If people had money to spend at capitalist parks, and capitalist parks realized that they could rent space to vendors (and make some money too), then capitalist vendors would move in and compete for the same spaces, and discerning customers would visit the best vendors, and everyone would be happy! ...except, the story doesn't end there, because eventually the capitalist park realizes that it has developed more value in its space by drawing people to a park where there's great food, so they raise the fees on the vendors, and the vendors realize that they can make more money by advertising more aggressively, or, better yet, by opening up side-businesses and operating those in the same park also ... eventually, this system corrupts itself and the park is no longer a park or the people can no longer afford to go there or any of a number of outcomes. For real world examples, look no further than the article that spawned this whole thread, or the huge number of empty commercial spaces that are still asking for ridiculous rents. So, I am skeptical of capitalism's ability to be anything more than a better economic model than anything else that's currently viable. And, the house does belong to the community, in a way, because it's a part of it, and it belongs to me, in a way, because I live in it. I think when I said "value", I was thinking of something different than what you were when you read it.

by Tichy 15y ago

thaumaturgy 15y ago

Hmm. I'm not sure how to respond, honestly. I don't feel like I'm investing into a place I'm renting; I feel like I'm investing into my home, and by extension, myself. Every time I walk outside, I feel like I've accomplished something, even if it's a relatively small thing. No matter how anything else is going in my life, that feeling is still there. If the owners decided to boot us out this month and sell the place for more than they could have otherwise, or even rent it out to someone else now that they can get more for the rent, I still would not feel like I had done something foolish. I still, for a while, will have made a place better. Even if new tenants or owners stopped maintaining it and let it go to ruin, that would only be a decision they have made, and still not change what I had done. It's made the other people in the neighborhood happy. It's made me happy. It's made the landlords happy. Maybe I could have spent the time and money on something else, but that's true no matter what I do. So, why not do something that makes so many people happy? > Yes, society is cheering on the people who sacrifice themselves... On my good days, I think that might be because society is looking for leaders that they can look up to. On my bad days, I think that might be because society has gotten lazy and just wants someone else to take care of it. > But I doubt that is for the best of the individual. It might not be best for many individuals, because it's easy to feel like you're being taken advantage of, or that you're giving up something you shouldn't be. But, for some individuals -- a growing number of them, I hope -- some forms of sacrifice can be so rewarding that it doesn't feel at all like sacrifice. > Of course people are cheering if they get something out of you for free. Sure, but maybe you're getting to do something you enjoy anyway. If you go out for a hike or visit a river or beach, why not pick up some trash while you're out there? If you're going to live in a home, why not improve it a bit while you're there? If you're going to get together with some friends, why not bring some food? And if people cheer you on for that, is that so bad? Anyway, the most powerful motivation, for me, is that I can see as clearly as if I were living in it now a world in which everyone else did things like this -- looked out for each-other, helped each-other up, cleaned up and improved the things around them, and invested in great little bistros and sandwich shops and bookstores and parks and such because they recognized the value of having such things in their community. I've found that it's impossible to tell anyone else what that kind of world looks like, or to get them to believe in it by talking about it. So, instead, I try to make it. One run-down house at a time. :-)

Tichy 15y ago
If you are happy, who am I to argue with that. Maybe you just really like your landlord. "living in it now a world in which everyone else did things like this -- looked out for each-other, helped each-other up, cleaned up and improved the things around them, and invested in great little bistros and sandwich shops and bookstores and parks and such because they recognized the value of having such things in their community." I like that, except for the part where the house still belongs to the landlord, not to the community or you. I would pick up trash in the mountains, because the mountains belong to everyone (or the government, which in theory is everyone). With the sandwich shops, I think capitalism could deliver: if people would realize the value of having sandwich shops in the park, they would perhaps be willing to pay for sandwiches, making it profitable to build nice sandwich shops. Sandwich shop owners as well as people living near the park would be motivated to keep it nice, as it would improve both the sandwich shop and the value of the houses around it. Maybe there are aspects of what you are doing that I don't see, though. As long as the landlord lets you live there, maybe you get to live in a nice place for a low rent. If you ever have to move, your landlord might write you a glowing letter of recommendation and make it easy for you to find another nice place. Then again, as they seem of the "not caring" kind, maybe they won't :-/
- thaumaturgy 15y ago
  I'm seriously amused by your last paragraph. It actually made me smile, because, despite explaining precisely why I'm doing this kind of stuff, you're still looking for the "angle", and that's the best example of why I find this attitude so difficult to communicate in an effective way to so many other people (and why I've all but given up at it). Yes, I am now living in a place with lower rent than I might be otherwise, but the rent is not lower than the total amount of money and time I have put into it; yes, the landlords might write an amazing letter of recommendation, but my experience so far has been that it's nearly impossible to wrest any kind of letter out of a landlord, no matter how good your relationship. As far as capitalism goes ... y'know, I don't dislike it, but I don't think it's an answer to everyone's needs, either. In order to work, capitalism requires that everything have a measurable, monetary value, and that most people agree on that value. Talk about the Mona Lisa to a capitalist, and the capitalist will tell you that whatever is spent on insuring and protecting the Mona Lisa is representative of its value; talk about the Mona Lisa to an art expert, and they'll use a term that is utterly foreign to a capitalist: "priceless". If people had money to spend at capitalist parks, and capitalist parks realized that they could rent space to vendors (and make some money too), then capitalist vendors would move in and compete for the same spaces, and discerning customers would visit the best vendors, and everyone would be happy! ...except, the story doesn't end there, because eventually the capitalist park realizes that it has developed more value in its space by drawing people to a park where there's great food, so they raise the fees on the vendors, and the vendors realize that they can make more money by advertising more aggressively, or, better yet, by opening up side-businesses and operating those in the same park also ... eventually, this system corrupts itself and the park is no longer a park or the people can no longer afford to go there or any of a number of outcomes. For real world examples, look no further than the article that spawned this whole thread, or the huge number of empty commercial spaces that are still asking for ridiculous rents. So, I am skeptical of capitalism's ability to be anything more than a better economic model than anything else that's currently viable. And, the house does belong to the community, in a way, because it's a part of it, and it belongs to me, in a way, because I live in it. I think when I said "value", I was thinking of something different than what you were when you read it.