9 ms·

> conservative politics in the UD make some people’s entire existence political, full stop Funny, as a conservative minority in a straight white liberal compan

> conservative politics in the UD make some people’s entire existence political, full stop Funny, as a conservative minority in a straight white liberal company, my entire existence isn’t just political, it’s apparently a moral imperative that I be reminded on a daily basis that people like myself not only shouldn’t have a voice, we shouldn’t be allowed to exist in society at all. Full stop. It’s made quite clear that my only means of survival are to keep my mouth shut and present myself as entirely apolitical. Perhaps I’m wrong, but experience tells me you’re perfectly happy if my existence is kept silenced for the greater good of allowing your political side to thrive and speak freely, but you’re not ok with both sides being silenced, or at least “toned down”, for the sake of promoting fairness, inclusion, and productivity.

pcthrowaway 5y ago
> Funny, as a conservative minority in a straight white liberal company, What is a "straight white" liberal company? Are you saying you've asked all your coworkers their sexual orientation, or are you making assumptions based on heteronormativity. Dating people of the opposite gender doesn't necessarily make one straight. As a not-entirely-straight man in tech, I have never discussed my degree of "straightness" at work, but I would be a bit taken aback by someone assuming this.
- randomsearch 5y ago
  This sort of over-reaction to throwaway comments is a big part of the problem. Take the most generous interpretation - maybe they just mean "a company where I am in the minority politically", that's all you need to take to follow the point. Stop being the language police or we'll never make any progress. Tolerance, generosity, always assume the best of someone.
- random5634 5y ago
  Good lord. Straight white could simply meant mostly white or mostly straight and white
deanCommie 5y ago
I don't know your lived experience. I'm going to try not to doubt it. Maybe your coworkers are toxic and you are trying to talk to them about why low taxes are good because they encourage innovation, and that government-run agencies are not as efficient as private enterprises, and they are screaming the Communist Manifesto back at you. But in my experience, that's not the kinds of opinions that I see the modern discourse have no tolerance for. Happy to be hear some stories otherwise and have my own mind be opened about the kind of discrimination you're talking about.
- kiawe_fire 5y ago
  The kind of toxicity I’m talking about doesn’t even involve a conversation. As an example, a couple months ago at the start of a dev meeting, my boss made a joke about a protest organized by business owners in the area urging our governor to open up businesses. It was covered as a largely conservative group. Here’s roughly how that went: Boss: “Doesn’t seem like a chance of this lockdown ending with all of those morons protesting this week” Coworker A: “Yeah, it’s scary how many of them think the virus doesn’t exist” Coworker B (imitating conservatives): “I’ll just shoot at the virus with my gun” Everyone laughs Coworker A: “The problem is they’re just not educated. If only we could steal their kids away and take them to some private education camp” Boss grunts with agreement. Coworker B: “Or they should just be prevented from having kids at all” Coworker A: “Maybe it’s for the best that they’re the ones that will die off. Natural selection at work.” Everyone laughs. Then the meeting starts. It escalates so quickly, in an awkward “half joking” way, that at no point to I feel able to jump in and provide perspective that many of them feel their livelihoods are threatened. That maybe we’re lucky that we haven’t missed a paycheck. That maybe they’re protesting not out of ignorance, but rather perspective we don’t have. Sometimes it’s simpler - my boss jokes that a neighbor put up a Trump sign and he “always thought they seemed like inbreds”, or a coworker questions why his friends daughter is dating a conservative who “hates women”. Is that my cue to explain “actually, I’m a conservative but believe strongly in women’s equality” or “hey, just because I have strong feelings about the 2nd amendment precisely as a means for women and minorities to protect themselves doesn’t mean I’m a bigot or an inbred?” To be fair, I have not outed myself as either a conservative or LGBTQ. Maybe they would think twice about what they say if I do. Maybe these are perfectly innocent jokes using a form of hyperbole that I’m just not getting. But I’ve also had plenty of conversations with friends and family along the “I wish gay people would keep it to themselves” and “kids need a mom and dad”. In those cases I’ve always felt able to have a discussion advocating against their ideas without feeling like my tires would be slashed in the parking lot.
wry_discontent 5y ago
> It’s made quite clear that my only means of survival are to keep my mouth shut and present myself as entirely apolitical. That's because most conservative politics is fundamentally opposed to the rights of any given minority group, pretty much via definition. You're right, I want you to shut the hell up and be ashamed of your views. I want you to not feel free to speak freely about your bigoted opinions.
- docmars 5y ago
  >That's because most conservative politics is fundamentally opposed to the rights of any given minority group, pretty much via definition. This is a common misconception of conservative views toward minority groups. I find it much more common that conservatives are totally down with the rights, but annoyed or put off by strong activism among minority groups; the preachy nature of advertising, comedy, and other entertainment; and the retaliation against differing views, whether that be job losses, deplatforming, or any other far-reaching (read: disproportionate) social ramifications. What conservatives and those who want to have a nuanced discussion around identity are finding difficult is the idea that the previously harsh nature of church life with regards to "sin" and rejection by a religious body have now been championed by identity activists who are now doing the same thing, only in a secular fashion -- going as far as calling otherwise benign expressions and statements of differing views "hateful" when they really aren't, and calling for the social/career equivalent of burning the witch at the stake -- alongside it being widely popular and mainstream to criticize speech that barely comes close to offending anyone with an ever-changing standard driving acceptable speech. Example: "Charge That “Soap Dispensers” Prove “Systemic Racism” Reflects a Deeper, Darker Problem" Source -- https://thenewamerican.com/charge-that-soap-dispensers-prove-systemic-racism-reflects-a-deeper-darker-problem/ https://thenewamerican.com/charge-that-soap-dispensers-prove...). Hence the common narrative in conservative circles being: "powerful people are telling you how to feel on behalf of minority groups with little to no consent or representation of the minority groups themselves", true or not. Example: an all-white leadership at Nextdoor adds racism warnings before users post content, not considering that a Person of Color could be posting "all lives matter" and imposing that they should be offended by what they themselves post (fact: Black conservatives exist in DROVES and strongly oppose BLM): Source -- https://notthebee.com/article/neighborhood-social-media-app-nextdoor-proudly-launches-anti-racism-notification-to-warn-you-before-you-post-potentially-racist-language-such-as-all-lives-matter https://notthebee.com/article/neighborhood-social-media-app-... There are radical pockets of people in almost every subculture, but it is difficult to believe that minority groups are facing as many challenges as non-minorities say there are (that's key!) when each minority group is enthusiastically supported by the very most powerful government and private institutions. This is especially true, now that it has become commonplace, popular, and acceptable in public (government) settings and entertainment to be Anti-White, which is patently racist. With that much support from the most powerful among us, what else is left? Some on the Left actively call for education camps and even genocide against conservatives. This cannot be proven differently.
zorpner 5y ago
Conservative: I have been censored for my conservative views Me: Holy shit! You were censored for wanting lower taxes? Con: LOL no...no not those views Me: So....deregulation? Con: Haha no not those views either Me: Which views, exactly? Con: Oh, you know the ones (from https://twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/1050391663552671744 https://twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/105039166355267174... )
randomsearch 5y ago
> Funny, as a conservative minority in a straight white liberal company, my entire existence isn’t just political, it’s apparently a moral imperative that I be reminded on a daily basis that people like myself not only shouldn’t have a voice, we shouldn’t be allowed to exist in society at all. Full stop. As someone on the opposite side of the political spectrum from you, I want to say - I respect your opinions, I can see some of the arguments for them, I'm willing to listen, and I would have absolutely no problem working with you, employing you, or hanging out. I'm really sorry it's come to this, and it is definitely my side of the political spectrum that is more to blame. I never really get chance to say that to anyone, so there it is FWIW.
- atonse 5y ago
  I agree here. I miss having loud good faith arguments with conservative coworkers (and ones more liberal than me) at lunch time and strongly disagreeing on some issues, and then just getting back to work talking about how much we hated Oracle databases. Mind you these were coworkers from all backgrounds. I just miss high quality political debate. What we have how is just name calling and tribalism.
- kiawe_fire 5y ago
  Thank you, that actually means a lot to me! While I wish my work environment allowed me to express my views as everyone else does, I do genuinely appreciate hearing other side, and I’ve certainly gained valuable perspective on some issues this way. As the other reply from atonse mentioned, I would love an environment where ideas can be discussed (and even disagreed with) but with mutual respect for each other as people with differing life experiences. I think we mostly have more in common than most of us think, and I think we would all have a lot less hate, a lot more shared understanding, and ultimately better outcomes at work and at home.
faitswulff 5y ago
Your potential... embarrassment? at being outed as a conservative is nowhere near as threatening as being outed as a gay or trans person.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
yibg 5y ago
Kinda depends on what you do and say as a conservative I guess. I agree that in liberal circles there is a bias against conservatives, but that's also because many conservative views are intolerant. Expressing "I'm a conservative" should be fine, but saying "I think homosexuality is gross. Oh by the way I'm conservative" is not. Unfortunately, the "conservatives" are often associated with the latter. I also think it's ok to be intolerant of intolerance, and not all views should be equally freely expressed. Taking a more extreme example (and definitely not saying OP or all conservatives are like this), but I'm ok with a klan member feeling his only means of survival at a work place is to keep his mouth shut about his beliefs.
lupire 5y ago
How are you defining "conservative"?
drewbug01 5y ago
> Perhaps I’m wrong, but experience tells me you’re perfectly happy if my existence is kept silenced for the greater good of allowing your political side to thrive and speak freely But this isn’t what I’m saying: I’m saying that plainly anodyne workplace chitchat that anecdotally confirms that I am a gay man is coded as political speech by many people. I don’t know if you misread me or not, but if you didn’t then it actually proves my point: you’re ascribing a political “side” to my speech when I’m just trying to say “gays are gonna get told to stop mentioning their husbands like we used to”. And that’s entirely my point: you’re coding my existence and participation in banal chitchat as political, and these policies make that much more dangerous for me.
- meowface 5y ago
  >But this isn’t what I’m saying: I’m saying that plainly anodyne workplace chitchat that anecdotally confirms that I am a gay man is coded as political speech by many people. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Basecamp is not at all saying people should not reveal, let alone actively hide, their sexual orientation, gender identity, or anything like that. I think anyone else at the company who considered such a thing political and tried to tell that person or the chat that what they're doing is political would be the only individual who's violating the "no politics at work" policy (perhaps in addition to other policies, too). I understand your concern in general, here, but I don't see any reason why "gays are gonna get told to stop mentioning their husbands like we used to" is a thing that would start happening as a result of this policy change at Basecamp. I very strongly share your opinion that a conservative person who would do such a thing is deeply in the wrong, but I don't really think I see how it would apply to this particular situation. I don't think "banning political discussion" at all carries the implications you're concerned about at most companies, and I think if it did happen at such a company it would be the thing that's violating the policy.
  - drewbug01 5y ago
    > I think anyone else at the company who considered such a thing political and tried to tell that person or the chat that what they're doing is political would be the only individual who's violating the "no politics at work" policy (perhaps in addition to other policies, too). You'd think, wouldn't you? :) This is the problem though: it all depends on who hears the complaint, and what biases they hold. There's nothing in the policy that's definitively banning this kind of harassment-labeled-as-politics, and so it could easily still happen. And I'm so adamant about the possibility because I've seen this happen! It's not a hypothetical to me. It's really gross, but it still plays out this way today. The US has made a lot of progress in this particular area, but it's still not a given that your management will support you or that you're going to end up in a workplace where bias is the exception, and not the norm.
honkycat 5y ago
Funny, I feel like there is a healthy conservative movement in the US and you are literally surrounded by conservatives all the time. In fact I think 74 million of them voted in the last election. So please explain how being a white male makes you some kind of victimized under-class.
- adamors 5y ago
  Conservatives love playing the victim. Tale old old as time.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- yanderekko 5y ago
  "There are two billions Muslims on earth, please explain how Islamophobia could possibly be real."

pcthrowaway 5y ago

> Funny, as a conservative minority in a straight white liberal company, What is a "straight white" liberal company? Are you saying you've asked all your coworkers their sexual orientation, or are you making assumptions based on heteronormativity. Dating people of the opposite gender doesn't necessarily make one straight. As a not-entirely-straight man in tech, I have never discussed my degree of "straightness" at work, but I would be a bit taken aback by someone assuming this.

randomsearch 5y ago
This sort of over-reaction to throwaway comments is a big part of the problem. Take the most generous interpretation - maybe they just mean "a company where I am in the minority politically", that's all you need to take to follow the point. Stop being the language police or we'll never make any progress. Tolerance, generosity, always assume the best of someone.
random5634 5y ago
Good lord. Straight white could simply meant mostly white or mostly straight and white

deanCommie 5y ago

I don't know your lived experience. I'm going to try not to doubt it. Maybe your coworkers are toxic and you are trying to talk to them about why low taxes are good because they encourage innovation, and that government-run agencies are not as efficient as private enterprises, and they are screaming the Communist Manifesto back at you. But in my experience, that's not the kinds of opinions that I see the modern discourse have no tolerance for. Happy to be hear some stories otherwise and have my own mind be opened about the kind of discrimination you're talking about.

kiawe_fire 5y ago
The kind of toxicity I’m talking about doesn’t even involve a conversation. As an example, a couple months ago at the start of a dev meeting, my boss made a joke about a protest organized by business owners in the area urging our governor to open up businesses. It was covered as a largely conservative group. Here’s roughly how that went: Boss: “Doesn’t seem like a chance of this lockdown ending with all of those morons protesting this week” Coworker A: “Yeah, it’s scary how many of them think the virus doesn’t exist” Coworker B (imitating conservatives): “I’ll just shoot at the virus with my gun” Everyone laughs Coworker A: “The problem is they’re just not educated. If only we could steal their kids away and take them to some private education camp” Boss grunts with agreement. Coworker B: “Or they should just be prevented from having kids at all” Coworker A: “Maybe it’s for the best that they’re the ones that will die off. Natural selection at work.” Everyone laughs. Then the meeting starts. It escalates so quickly, in an awkward “half joking” way, that at no point to I feel able to jump in and provide perspective that many of them feel their livelihoods are threatened. That maybe we’re lucky that we haven’t missed a paycheck. That maybe they’re protesting not out of ignorance, but rather perspective we don’t have. Sometimes it’s simpler - my boss jokes that a neighbor put up a Trump sign and he “always thought they seemed like inbreds”, or a coworker questions why his friends daughter is dating a conservative who “hates women”. Is that my cue to explain “actually, I’m a conservative but believe strongly in women’s equality” or “hey, just because I have strong feelings about the 2nd amendment precisely as a means for women and minorities to protect themselves doesn’t mean I’m a bigot or an inbred?” To be fair, I have not outed myself as either a conservative or LGBTQ. Maybe they would think twice about what they say if I do. Maybe these are perfectly innocent jokes using a form of hyperbole that I’m just not getting. But I’ve also had plenty of conversations with friends and family along the “I wish gay people would keep it to themselves” and “kids need a mom and dad”. In those cases I’ve always felt able to have a discussion advocating against their ideas without feeling like my tires would be slashed in the parking lot.

wry_discontent 5y ago

> It’s made quite clear that my only means of survival are to keep my mouth shut and present myself as entirely apolitical. That's because most conservative politics is fundamentally opposed to the rights of any given minority group, pretty much via definition. You're right, I want you to shut the hell up and be ashamed of your views. I want you to not feel free to speak freely about your bigoted opinions.

docmars 5y ago
>That's because most conservative politics is fundamentally opposed to the rights of any given minority group, pretty much via definition. This is a common misconception of conservative views toward minority groups. I find it much more common that conservatives are totally down with the rights, but annoyed or put off by strong activism among minority groups; the preachy nature of advertising, comedy, and other entertainment; and the retaliation against differing views, whether that be job losses, deplatforming, or any other far-reaching (read: disproportionate) social ramifications. What conservatives and those who want to have a nuanced discussion around identity are finding difficult is the idea that the previously harsh nature of church life with regards to "sin" and rejection by a religious body have now been championed by identity activists who are now doing the same thing, only in a secular fashion -- going as far as calling otherwise benign expressions and statements of differing views "hateful" when they really aren't, and calling for the social/career equivalent of burning the witch at the stake -- alongside it being widely popular and mainstream to criticize speech that barely comes close to offending anyone with an ever-changing standard driving acceptable speech. Example: "Charge That “Soap Dispensers” Prove “Systemic Racism” Reflects a Deeper, Darker Problem" Source -- https://thenewamerican.com/charge-that-soap-dispensers-prove-systemic-racism-reflects-a-deeper-darker-problem/ https://thenewamerican.com/charge-that-soap-dispensers-prove...). Hence the common narrative in conservative circles being: "powerful people are telling you how to feel on behalf of minority groups with little to no consent or representation of the minority groups themselves", true or not. Example: an all-white leadership at Nextdoor adds racism warnings before users post content, not considering that a Person of Color could be posting "all lives matter" and imposing that they should be offended by what they themselves post (fact: Black conservatives exist in DROVES and strongly oppose BLM): Source -- https://notthebee.com/article/neighborhood-social-media-app-nextdoor-proudly-launches-anti-racism-notification-to-warn-you-before-you-post-potentially-racist-language-such-as-all-lives-matter https://notthebee.com/article/neighborhood-social-media-app-... There are radical pockets of people in almost every subculture, but it is difficult to believe that minority groups are facing as many challenges as non-minorities say there are (that's key!) when each minority group is enthusiastically supported by the very most powerful government and private institutions. This is especially true, now that it has become commonplace, popular, and acceptable in public (government) settings and entertainment to be Anti-White, which is patently racist. With that much support from the most powerful among us, what else is left? Some on the Left actively call for education camps and even genocide against conservatives. This cannot be proven differently.

zorpner 5y ago

Conservative: I have been censored for my conservative views Me: Holy shit! You were censored for wanting lower taxes? Con: LOL no...no not those views Me: So....deregulation? Con: Haha no not those views either Me: Which views, exactly? Con: Oh, you know the ones (from https://twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/1050391663552671744 https://twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/105039166355267174... )

randomsearch 5y ago

> Funny, as a conservative minority in a straight white liberal company, my entire existence isn’t just political, it’s apparently a moral imperative that I be reminded on a daily basis that people like myself not only shouldn’t have a voice, we shouldn’t be allowed to exist in society at all. Full stop. As someone on the opposite side of the political spectrum from you, I want to say - I respect your opinions, I can see some of the arguments for them, I'm willing to listen, and I would have absolutely no problem working with you, employing you, or hanging out. I'm really sorry it's come to this, and it is definitely my side of the political spectrum that is more to blame. I never really get chance to say that to anyone, so there it is FWIW.

atonse 5y ago
I agree here. I miss having loud good faith arguments with conservative coworkers (and ones more liberal than me) at lunch time and strongly disagreeing on some issues, and then just getting back to work talking about how much we hated Oracle databases. Mind you these were coworkers from all backgrounds. I just miss high quality political debate. What we have how is just name calling and tribalism.
kiawe_fire 5y ago
Thank you, that actually means a lot to me! While I wish my work environment allowed me to express my views as everyone else does, I do genuinely appreciate hearing other side, and I’ve certainly gained valuable perspective on some issues this way. As the other reply from atonse mentioned, I would love an environment where ideas can be discussed (and even disagreed with) but with mutual respect for each other as people with differing life experiences. I think we mostly have more in common than most of us think, and I think we would all have a lot less hate, a lot more shared understanding, and ultimately better outcomes at work and at home.

faitswulff 5y ago

Your potential... embarrassment? at being outed as a conservative is nowhere near as threatening as being outed as a gay or trans person.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

yibg 5y ago

Kinda depends on what you do and say as a conservative I guess. I agree that in liberal circles there is a bias against conservatives, but that's also because many conservative views are intolerant. Expressing "I'm a conservative" should be fine, but saying "I think homosexuality is gross. Oh by the way I'm conservative" is not. Unfortunately, the "conservatives" are often associated with the latter. I also think it's ok to be intolerant of intolerance, and not all views should be equally freely expressed. Taking a more extreme example (and definitely not saying OP or all conservatives are like this), but I'm ok with a klan member feeling his only means of survival at a work place is to keep his mouth shut about his beliefs.

lupire 5y ago

How are you defining "conservative"?

drewbug01 5y ago

> Perhaps I’m wrong, but experience tells me you’re perfectly happy if my existence is kept silenced for the greater good of allowing your political side to thrive and speak freely But this isn’t what I’m saying: I’m saying that plainly anodyne workplace chitchat that anecdotally confirms that I am a gay man is coded as political speech by many people. I don’t know if you misread me or not, but if you didn’t then it actually proves my point: you’re ascribing a political “side” to my speech when I’m just trying to say “gays are gonna get told to stop mentioning their husbands like we used to”. And that’s entirely my point: you’re coding my existence and participation in banal chitchat as political, and these policies make that much more dangerous for me.

meowface 5y ago
>But this isn’t what I’m saying: I’m saying that plainly anodyne workplace chitchat that anecdotally confirms that I am a gay man is coded as political speech by many people. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Basecamp is not at all saying people should not reveal, let alone actively hide, their sexual orientation, gender identity, or anything like that. I think anyone else at the company who considered such a thing political and tried to tell that person or the chat that what they're doing is political would be the only individual who's violating the "no politics at work" policy (perhaps in addition to other policies, too). I understand your concern in general, here, but I don't see any reason why "gays are gonna get told to stop mentioning their husbands like we used to" is a thing that would start happening as a result of this policy change at Basecamp. I very strongly share your opinion that a conservative person who would do such a thing is deeply in the wrong, but I don't really think I see how it would apply to this particular situation. I don't think "banning political discussion" at all carries the implications you're concerned about at most companies, and I think if it did happen at such a company it would be the thing that's violating the policy.
- drewbug01 5y ago
  > I think anyone else at the company who considered such a thing political and tried to tell that person or the chat that what they're doing is political would be the only individual who's violating the "no politics at work" policy (perhaps in addition to other policies, too). You'd think, wouldn't you? :) This is the problem though: it all depends on who hears the complaint, and what biases they hold. There's nothing in the policy that's definitively banning this kind of harassment-labeled-as-politics, and so it could easily still happen. And I'm so adamant about the possibility because I've seen this happen! It's not a hypothetical to me. It's really gross, but it still plays out this way today. The US has made a lot of progress in this particular area, but it's still not a given that your management will support you or that you're going to end up in a workplace where bias is the exception, and not the norm.

honkycat 5y ago

Funny, I feel like there is a healthy conservative movement in the US and you are literally surrounded by conservatives all the time. In fact I think 74 million of them voted in the last election. So please explain how being a white male makes you some kind of victimized under-class.

adamors 5y ago
Conservatives love playing the victim. Tale old old as time.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
yanderekko 5y ago
"There are two billions Muslims on earth, please explain how Islamophobia could possibly be real."