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> You uninvited certain people entirely, and in doing so have taken a hell of a stance on that persons inherent worth. I don't understand how banning discussi

> You uninvited certain people entirely, and in doing so have taken a hell of a stance on that persons inherent worth. I don't understand how banning discussions on politics in official company communication channels leads to that. On the contrary, doesn't such a policy create a safe space for the people you're talking about to work together with other people who have different views?

tclancy 6y ago
I think it’s because it’s really just putting your fingers in your ears, ignoring the fact you simply redefined the problem instead of solving it. The next step is, who gets to decide what is and is not “political”? The answer tends to be the last people you want.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
tshaddox 6y ago
Compare these two messages that might appear in a company’s casual chat channel: “I’m getting married this weekend and I’m so excited!” “I tried to get a marriage license today but the county clerk refused to give me one because we are a same-sex couple, which is really upsetting!” Both statements involve the same event in a person’s life, and it’s an event that tends to be very important and is a very natural thing to share with coworkers. Only one of the statements happens to involve (and even take a stance on!) a political debate which was extremely prominent in US national politics 6 years ago and extremely divisive and highly-charged. If a company has a policy like this, what should their response be to these two people? Should one, both, or neither message be allowed in the company’s casual chat channel?
- throwawayboise 6y ago
  Why do you think your marriage is of such general interest that you bring it up in a company chat channel? Talk about it in person, with people who give a shit.
  - yerwhat01010 6y ago
    Oh, c'mon. You think he should never mention his spouse to his coworkers, even in passing? You can't think of any situation in which it would be totally ordinary to say something about "my husband" or "my wife" in a work channel? Anyway, I need to get off HN, I'm working from home and my wife just told me that lunch is ready.
- yosito 6y ago
  I've learned from experience that it's never a good idea to bring your personal problems to work, no matter what they are or how unjust they are. Work just isn't the place for it.
  - drewbug01 6y ago
    I think there's some level of "leave your personal life at home" that isn't completely bad. I don't talk about all of my personal problems at the office. But the other side of "Work just isn't the place for it" is this: sometimes personal problems affect you so profoundly, that they then affect your work performance. Your colleagues (and management) deserve to know about those things, so they can plan and adjust accordingly (and offer any personal or workplace support that is appropriate). To use a somewhat silly analogy - we understand that if someone is too sick to work, then they shouldn't come to work. We don't tell people "work just isn't the place for your illness," because we know that some illnesses really make it impossible to do any work. And, that if you don't go home and rest, the ultimate impact to the business will be worse in the long run because you can't recover. I think some personal problems rise to that level. Getting cut off in traffic and being annoyed? I don't know, maybe not. "The cops just shot 3 more black people like me at traffic stops this weekend and I'm having a really hard time concentrating now" might be a "personal problem" that is highly relevant to bring up at work (and coded as "political," to boot). That kind of thing would understandably rattle you, and it takes time to heal from. I guess my point is: we're not robots, and it's not possible to really "check it at the door" most of the time. It never really has been. The Basecamp policy isn't going to stop people from bringing their personal problems to work, overall. But it'll silence black people and gay people from bringing their problems to work, because those are "political" problems to some people.
    - yosito 6y ago
      If something happening in society or your personal life is preventing you from doing your job, you don't have to explain it in the company wide channel. In fact, doing so probably won't help you or the company much. Most companies offer sick days and mental health days, for which you don't need to provide any explanation whatsoever. Many companies also pay for confidential mental health services. If your problem can't be solved with those benefits, disability insurance is also commonplace at companies and typically covers mental illness that would prevent you from doing your work. Companies should offer all of those things if they don't. I would go so far as to say that companies should be legally required to offer all of those things if they don't. But I don't think talking about personal or societal dumpster fires in the company chat will do anything to help the person affected, and will likely cause one person or group's problems to affect the work of the rest of the company without leading to any kind of resolution for anyone.
- imgabe 6y ago
  The blog post specifically mentioned the work chat channel. Talk about whatever you want in other channels. If you were in the middle of a meeting to plan a new product launch and suddenly announced "I'm getting married this weekend!" what kind of reaction would you expect? People might be polite but gently remind you that's not really relevant to what's being discussed at the moment and to get back to work. If you kept on trying to turn every discussion about work back to how it relates to your upcoming wedding, they'd eventually get annoyed and write you off as an obnoxious weirdo, and they'd be right.
  - wry_discontent 6y ago
    > People might be polite but gently remind you that's not really relevant to what's being discussed at the moment Have you never been in a workplace before? That is absolutely not what would happen, especially in HN's darling startup atmosphere. No normal person, being told their colleague was getting married would brush it off and say it's not relevant to the work discussion, and nor should they. It's inhuman and gross. I'm not a robot. I want to celebrate with my coworkers. We spend a lot of time together, playing like we shouldn't get personal with our time is absurd.
    - dang 6y ago
      Would you please stop posting in the flamewar style to HN? You've been doing it repeatedly, and it's destructive of what this site is supposed to be for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit more to heart, we'd be grateful.
  - lupire 6y ago
    Not every office is full of robots. People chitchat during meetings.
  - drewbug01 6y ago
    “ No more societal and political discussions on our company Basecamp account. “ They banned it in all channels, and told their employees to chat on Signal: “ People can take the conversations with willing co-workers to Signal, Whatsapp, or even a personal Basecamp account, but it can't happen where the work happens anymore.” So - it’s not like what you asserted, at all. What you asserted is somewhat reasonable (even if I would want to nitpick at the edge cases) ... but they’re not saying anything close to what you’re saying.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- kiawe_fire 6y ago
  I don’t think the line is nearly as complicated as most people make it out to be. Somebody discussing their plans and related challenges may have political notions attached, but the “right and wrong” are not the focal point. If someone responds with “good, gay marriage is wrong”, you’ve clearly crossed into political debate, and opened the line for personal attacks. If someone responds with “everyone who’s against this is a Nazi”, you have also done the same. If, instead, the response is centered around the person’s own experience (“I’m sorry to hear that, I know some family with a similar struggle”) then it’s fine. It’s not terribly different if you’re discussing being disappointed that your insurance rates went up. “Sucks that we have to pay $75 more a month” is fine. Adding that “it’s all because of Obamacare” crosses the line. I don’t see the line being that difficult, it’s just that most people on BOTH sides take these statements as their cue to start engaging in their political debate, usually abandoning all subtlety and nuance while gathering the pitchforks and drawing warlines. People forget how much diversity of opinion there is, from gay couples against marriage, to Christian supporters of gay marriage, to libertarians who don’t support any state recognized marriage at all. Same goes for taxes, HUD approved appliances, EPA regulations, etc. Name a political debate, and I’ll give you people I’ve met or worked with who don’t fit into the media-prescribed boxes. Most importantly, people have seemingly forgotten that whether you agree or disagree with the cause, it’s entirely possible to just be supportive of your fellow humans for the sake of wanting them to be happy.
- analogdreams 6y ago
  Neither of those messages should be posted in the workplace. And I really don't understand why your sexual preferences should be known to/by your coworkers either. Having recent returned to a corporate work environment I am amazed at how much time is spent focusing on these things instead of, you know, running the business and generating shareholder value.
  - jakelazaroff 6y ago
    Because people aren’t robots, and like to get to know the people with whom they spend ~40 hours every week?
    - angry_octet 6y ago
      But not if that involves gay husbands or racist police or housing policy. (And since housing is Topic #1 in SV that might prove a bit difficult.) Only the weather, who you saw dining together at the yacht club, and ... IDK. You can't even have a good old vim/emacs at Basecamp.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > Only the weather But be careful of anything touching on long-term trends...
  - drewbug01 6y ago
    > And I really don't understand why your sexual preferences should be known to/by your coworkers either. Well, to be fair - when I say “my husband” that doesn’t talk about sexual preferences any more than saying “my wife.” I don’t see how that’s talking about sex, do you?
    - analogdreams 6y ago
      In conjunction with knowing your gender, I believe it does, or at least provides a very strong suggestion. The point is neither should matter, and I would argue, neither should be known, in the workplace.
- eweise 6y ago
  The same sex couple message doesn't seem political because there are just sharing an experience. It would be political if they continued on about the law was unfair and needs to change.

tclancy 6y ago

I think it’s because it’s really just putting your fingers in your ears, ignoring the fact you simply redefined the problem instead of solving it. The next step is, who gets to decide what is and is not “political”? The answer tends to be the last people you want.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

tshaddox 6y ago

Compare these two messages that might appear in a company’s casual chat channel: “I’m getting married this weekend and I’m so excited!” “I tried to get a marriage license today but the county clerk refused to give me one because we are a same-sex couple, which is really upsetting!” Both statements involve the same event in a person’s life, and it’s an event that tends to be very important and is a very natural thing to share with coworkers. Only one of the statements happens to involve (and even take a stance on!) a political debate which was extremely prominent in US national politics 6 years ago and extremely divisive and highly-charged. If a company has a policy like this, what should their response be to these two people? Should one, both, or neither message be allowed in the company’s casual chat channel?

throwawayboise 6y ago
Why do you think your marriage is of such general interest that you bring it up in a company chat channel? Talk about it in person, with people who give a shit.
- yerwhat01010 6y ago
  Oh, c'mon. You think he should never mention his spouse to his coworkers, even in passing? You can't think of any situation in which it would be totally ordinary to say something about "my husband" or "my wife" in a work channel? Anyway, I need to get off HN, I'm working from home and my wife just told me that lunch is ready.
yosito 6y ago
I've learned from experience that it's never a good idea to bring your personal problems to work, no matter what they are or how unjust they are. Work just isn't the place for it.
- drewbug01 6y ago
  I think there's some level of "leave your personal life at home" that isn't completely bad. I don't talk about all of my personal problems at the office. But the other side of "Work just isn't the place for it" is this: sometimes personal problems affect you so profoundly, that they then affect your work performance. Your colleagues (and management) deserve to know about those things, so they can plan and adjust accordingly (and offer any personal or workplace support that is appropriate). To use a somewhat silly analogy - we understand that if someone is too sick to work, then they shouldn't come to work. We don't tell people "work just isn't the place for your illness," because we know that some illnesses really make it impossible to do any work. And, that if you don't go home and rest, the ultimate impact to the business will be worse in the long run because you can't recover. I think some personal problems rise to that level. Getting cut off in traffic and being annoyed? I don't know, maybe not. "The cops just shot 3 more black people like me at traffic stops this weekend and I'm having a really hard time concentrating now" might be a "personal problem" that is highly relevant to bring up at work (and coded as "political," to boot). That kind of thing would understandably rattle you, and it takes time to heal from. I guess my point is: we're not robots, and it's not possible to really "check it at the door" most of the time. It never really has been. The Basecamp policy isn't going to stop people from bringing their personal problems to work, overall. But it'll silence black people and gay people from bringing their problems to work, because those are "political" problems to some people.
  - yosito 6y ago
    If something happening in society or your personal life is preventing you from doing your job, you don't have to explain it in the company wide channel. In fact, doing so probably won't help you or the company much. Most companies offer sick days and mental health days, for which you don't need to provide any explanation whatsoever. Many companies also pay for confidential mental health services. If your problem can't be solved with those benefits, disability insurance is also commonplace at companies and typically covers mental illness that would prevent you from doing your work. Companies should offer all of those things if they don't. I would go so far as to say that companies should be legally required to offer all of those things if they don't. But I don't think talking about personal or societal dumpster fires in the company chat will do anything to help the person affected, and will likely cause one person or group's problems to affect the work of the rest of the company without leading to any kind of resolution for anyone.
imgabe 6y ago
The blog post specifically mentioned the work chat channel. Talk about whatever you want in other channels. If you were in the middle of a meeting to plan a new product launch and suddenly announced "I'm getting married this weekend!" what kind of reaction would you expect? People might be polite but gently remind you that's not really relevant to what's being discussed at the moment and to get back to work. If you kept on trying to turn every discussion about work back to how it relates to your upcoming wedding, they'd eventually get annoyed and write you off as an obnoxious weirdo, and they'd be right.
- wry_discontent 6y ago
  > People might be polite but gently remind you that's not really relevant to what's being discussed at the moment Have you never been in a workplace before? That is absolutely not what would happen, especially in HN's darling startup atmosphere. No normal person, being told their colleague was getting married would brush it off and say it's not relevant to the work discussion, and nor should they. It's inhuman and gross. I'm not a robot. I want to celebrate with my coworkers. We spend a lot of time together, playing like we shouldn't get personal with our time is absurd.
  - dang 6y ago
    Would you please stop posting in the flamewar style to HN? You've been doing it repeatedly, and it's destructive of what this site is supposed to be for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit more to heart, we'd be grateful.
- lupire 6y ago
  Not every office is full of robots. People chitchat during meetings.
- drewbug01 6y ago
  “ No more societal and political discussions on our company Basecamp account. “ They banned it in all channels, and told their employees to chat on Signal: “ People can take the conversations with willing co-workers to Signal, Whatsapp, or even a personal Basecamp account, but it can't happen where the work happens anymore.” So - it’s not like what you asserted, at all. What you asserted is somewhat reasonable (even if I would want to nitpick at the edge cases) ... but they’re not saying anything close to what you’re saying.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
kiawe_fire 6y ago
I don’t think the line is nearly as complicated as most people make it out to be. Somebody discussing their plans and related challenges may have political notions attached, but the “right and wrong” are not the focal point. If someone responds with “good, gay marriage is wrong”, you’ve clearly crossed into political debate, and opened the line for personal attacks. If someone responds with “everyone who’s against this is a Nazi”, you have also done the same. If, instead, the response is centered around the person’s own experience (“I’m sorry to hear that, I know some family with a similar struggle”) then it’s fine. It’s not terribly different if you’re discussing being disappointed that your insurance rates went up. “Sucks that we have to pay $75 more a month” is fine. Adding that “it’s all because of Obamacare” crosses the line. I don’t see the line being that difficult, it’s just that most people on BOTH sides take these statements as their cue to start engaging in their political debate, usually abandoning all subtlety and nuance while gathering the pitchforks and drawing warlines. People forget how much diversity of opinion there is, from gay couples against marriage, to Christian supporters of gay marriage, to libertarians who don’t support any state recognized marriage at all. Same goes for taxes, HUD approved appliances, EPA regulations, etc. Name a political debate, and I’ll give you people I’ve met or worked with who don’t fit into the media-prescribed boxes. Most importantly, people have seemingly forgotten that whether you agree or disagree with the cause, it’s entirely possible to just be supportive of your fellow humans for the sake of wanting them to be happy.
analogdreams 6y ago
Neither of those messages should be posted in the workplace. And I really don't understand why your sexual preferences should be known to/by your coworkers either. Having recent returned to a corporate work environment I am amazed at how much time is spent focusing on these things instead of, you know, running the business and generating shareholder value.
- jakelazaroff 6y ago
  Because people aren’t robots, and like to get to know the people with whom they spend ~40 hours every week?
  - angry_octet 6y ago
    But not if that involves gay husbands or racist police or housing policy. (And since housing is Topic #1 in SV that might prove a bit difficult.) Only the weather, who you saw dining together at the yacht club, and ... IDK. You can't even have a good old vim/emacs at Basecamp.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > Only the weather But be careful of anything touching on long-term trends...
- drewbug01 6y ago
  > And I really don't understand why your sexual preferences should be known to/by your coworkers either. Well, to be fair - when I say “my husband” that doesn’t talk about sexual preferences any more than saying “my wife.” I don’t see how that’s talking about sex, do you?
  - analogdreams 6y ago
    In conjunction with knowing your gender, I believe it does, or at least provides a very strong suggestion. The point is neither should matter, and I would argue, neither should be known, in the workplace.
eweise 6y ago
The same sex couple message doesn't seem political because there are just sharing an experience. It would be political if they continued on about the law was unfair and needs to change.