4 ms·

This is why I find standups (and other ceremonies) patronizing and exhausting. It's like you have to publicly defend yourself and your work every single day. Th

This is why I find standups (and other ceremonies) patronizing and exhausting. It's like you have to publicly defend yourself and your work every single day. There's a massive difference between setting up accountability for yourself and having your manager/team/etc impose a public accountability ritual on you. Doubly so because it's usually billed as being about "visibility" or "alignment" or something else, as if it isn't about mico-level "accountability".

cdogl 6y ago
I couldn't agree more. The feeling you are describing is felt particularly acutely by individuals who are junior, or for one reason or another (low self esteem, flagging mental health, membership of a group that experiences disproportionate marginalisation in the workplace), and in my experience it subtly but profoundly warps developers' motivations and drives. Tasks can become all about rushing to get some progress made so you have something to say in stand-up or the weekly showcase, and not about actually patiently thinking problems through at whatever level of detail is appropriate at their org scale.
- tgaj 6y ago
  I don't understand. Can't you say on stand-up that you are "patiently thinking problem"? You can try to explain how this process works for other team members and maybe they will learn something new. If you can't explain what you are doing maybe it's not as important as you think.
lostcolony 6y ago
So as with everything agile, the process is -nothing- without the culture. You can't fix culture with process. If the culture is right, it's enabling. If the culture is wrong, it's patronizing. It's not intended to be a public accountability ritual; it's intended to make it so you're participating in setting the expectations of the team, and if you're not living up to them, the team looks to figure out how to better support and enable you.
- tikhonj 6y ago
  I'm sorry, a process that happens in front of your team so that they can judge whether you're "living up to expectations" is literally a public accountability ritual. You can't fix culture with (just) process, but process certainly affects culture. And this kind of process directly contributes to a culture where people are pressured based on how they work at an extremely finely grained level. Even if somebody is doing top-notch work and having real impact long-term, if they're not making legible progress day-to-day, Agile is going to make them look bad and feel bad. The process itself emphasizes consistency and incremental work while deemphasizing individual flexibility and agency. Now, perhaps some teams have a culture that's strong and accepting enough to compensate for this and provide a great environment for people who work in different ways, but if that's the case it's despite the process, not because of it. I've never seen that myself though.
  - jimmySixDOF 6y ago
    I understand the argument that most people don't implement Agile as it was intended, but I don't think it is an enabler of bad management practices any more than what would be implemented in it's place if you remove the Stand-ups and Backlogs. It's like what they say about Democracy being the worst system of government except for all the rest. Brittle teams who are not in it together with each other are going to be hard work whatever the organizational structure. The fact that situation is so normal is not the fault of Agile.
  - msingle 6y ago
    I'm unsure if this is more your perceptions, the places that you've worked or a combination. Why do you phrase it as "public accountability ritual"? I'm sensing my definition for accountability is different than yours. I typically think of my comment at a standup as (small) opportunity to answer "what have you been working on?" once instead of if every member came by and asked in a friendly manner. I wouldn't be bothered by them asking individually, and it saves me repeating the answer. I've never heard the phrase "isn't living up to expectations" related to stand ups. Do you (or places you've worked) normally have those related? I'm not sure I understand. Why do you think it's "in front of your team" as opposed to "with your team"? I, and other people I've worked with, have never been bothered by saying "still working on the same hard task" for _weeks_. If anything, I usually hear encouraging comments; "it sucks that the task is so difficult", "anything I can do to help you out?", "I'm surprised you haven't gone crazy from that", etc. The places I've worked at aren't even great at agile, but I've never seen the process directed towards some of the things you're saying.

cdogl 6y ago

I couldn't agree more. The feeling you are describing is felt particularly acutely by individuals who are junior, or for one reason or another (low self esteem, flagging mental health, membership of a group that experiences disproportionate marginalisation in the workplace), and in my experience it subtly but profoundly warps developers' motivations and drives. Tasks can become all about rushing to get some progress made so you have something to say in stand-up or the weekly showcase, and not about actually patiently thinking problems through at whatever level of detail is appropriate at their org scale.

tgaj 6y ago
I don't understand. Can't you say on stand-up that you are "patiently thinking problem"? You can try to explain how this process works for other team members and maybe they will learn something new. If you can't explain what you are doing maybe it's not as important as you think.

lostcolony 6y ago

So as with everything agile, the process is -nothing- without the culture. You can't fix culture with process. If the culture is right, it's enabling. If the culture is wrong, it's patronizing. It's not intended to be a public accountability ritual; it's intended to make it so you're participating in setting the expectations of the team, and if you're not living up to them, the team looks to figure out how to better support and enable you.

tikhonj 6y ago
I'm sorry, a process that happens in front of your team so that they can judge whether you're "living up to expectations" is literally a public accountability ritual. You can't fix culture with (just) process, but process certainly affects culture. And this kind of process directly contributes to a culture where people are pressured based on how they work at an extremely finely grained level. Even if somebody is doing top-notch work and having real impact long-term, if they're not making legible progress day-to-day, Agile is going to make them look bad and feel bad. The process itself emphasizes consistency and incremental work while deemphasizing individual flexibility and agency. Now, perhaps some teams have a culture that's strong and accepting enough to compensate for this and provide a great environment for people who work in different ways, but if that's the case it's despite the process, not because of it. I've never seen that myself though.
- jimmySixDOF 6y ago
  I understand the argument that most people don't implement Agile as it was intended, but I don't think it is an enabler of bad management practices any more than what would be implemented in it's place if you remove the Stand-ups and Backlogs. It's like what they say about Democracy being the worst system of government except for all the rest. Brittle teams who are not in it together with each other are going to be hard work whatever the organizational structure. The fact that situation is so normal is not the fault of Agile.
- msingle 6y ago
  I'm unsure if this is more your perceptions, the places that you've worked or a combination. Why do you phrase it as "public accountability ritual"? I'm sensing my definition for accountability is different than yours. I typically think of my comment at a standup as (small) opportunity to answer "what have you been working on?" once instead of if every member came by and asked in a friendly manner. I wouldn't be bothered by them asking individually, and it saves me repeating the answer. I've never heard the phrase "isn't living up to expectations" related to stand ups. Do you (or places you've worked) normally have those related? I'm not sure I understand. Why do you think it's "in front of your team" as opposed to "with your team"? I, and other people I've worked with, have never been bothered by saying "still working on the same hard task" for _weeks_. If anything, I usually hear encouraging comments; "it sucks that the task is so difficult", "anything I can do to help you out?", "I'm surprised you haven't gone crazy from that", etc. The places I've worked at aren't even great at agile, but I've never seen the process directed towards some of the things you're saying.