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> Out of curiosity, why do kids need to learn programming early at all? Simon Peyton Jones gave a great lecture on this topic at Strange Loop a few years ago.

> Out of curiosity, why do kids need to learn programming early at all? Simon Peyton Jones gave a great lecture on this topic at Strange Loop a few years ago. Basically, "computer science" can be reframed as the study of information, computation and communication. Thinking about these subjects rigorously and solving the problems surrounding them is a foundational skill that is much more broadly applicable than just in programming, and really does not need to involve computers at all (as he shows in his lecture. > I could be totally wrong, but I've never seen an instance where kids exposed to dumbed-down "reduced complexity" material outperform those that weren't, except in sports and art. I'm not sure I follow. I mean, that's how children learn to read and write, it is not? Or how they learn maths at school: one step at a time. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-xgWLYQc4g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-xgWLYQc4g

quacked 6y ago
I have no quarrel with the assertion that computing is one of if not the single most important field to learn in modern society; what I am suspicious of is that there's any long-term performance benefit of making children learn "pre-computing" through iPad apps at an age where they're not ready to learn real computing. Of course if a particular child shows great initiative and engagement with pre-computing, they'll do well with real computing, but then why not just start with computing? For the ones that don't care, why not let them continue reading books they enjoy and playing outside? That's how American children learn to read and write. It's not how Russian children used to learn to read and write; they started school much later, and immediately began fairly mature studies of classic Russian literature and poetry (Pushkin, for example).
- lacker 6y ago
  making children learn "pre-computing" through iPad apps at an age where they're not ready to learn real computing I just think there's a bit of a gap right now. I think apps like Tynker that provide sort of pre-computing problem-solving are pretty good. I also like environments like Replit that are easy to jump right into and get a Python environment without a bunch of random setup. And all of this is way better than I had when I was a kid! But I think there could be something in the middle, maybe something that started to engage with topics like list manipulation a bit more than the current batch of pre-computing apps do.
- Syntonicles 6y ago
  I have no quarrel with the assertion that reading is important. I'm suspicious of the need for pre-reading (letters) If a child shows great initiative with letters, they'll do well with reading. But why not just start with reading? Russian children don't start with letters on an IPad. They start later, immediately tackling classic literature.
  - quacked 6y ago
    This analogy is not accurate. It is impossible to read without understanding letters; it is not impossible to program without completing simple pre-programming exercises on an iPad. Other people in this thread are pitching simplified programming exercises as an advantageous performance benefit for children to show them before real programming. This is akin to showing kids simplified reading exercises before reading. I do not believe there is any tangible long term benefit to making kids look at a picture of a dog and choose the letter "D" from a floating letter cloud to complete __OG, and I also do not believe there is any tangible long term benefit to making kids complete simple loop structures on an iPad or in a video game in advance of actually starting to program. It is not crucial for the development of children for adults to provide them with neutered facsimiles of reality.

quacked 6y ago

I have no quarrel with the assertion that computing is one of if not the single most important field to learn in modern society; what I am suspicious of is that there's any long-term performance benefit of making children learn "pre-computing" through iPad apps at an age where they're not ready to learn real computing. Of course if a particular child shows great initiative and engagement with pre-computing, they'll do well with real computing, but then why not just start with computing? For the ones that don't care, why not let them continue reading books they enjoy and playing outside? That's how American children learn to read and write. It's not how Russian children used to learn to read and write; they started school much later, and immediately began fairly mature studies of classic Russian literature and poetry (Pushkin, for example).

lacker 6y ago
making children learn "pre-computing" through iPad apps at an age where they're not ready to learn real computing I just think there's a bit of a gap right now. I think apps like Tynker that provide sort of pre-computing problem-solving are pretty good. I also like environments like Replit that are easy to jump right into and get a Python environment without a bunch of random setup. And all of this is way better than I had when I was a kid! But I think there could be something in the middle, maybe something that started to engage with topics like list manipulation a bit more than the current batch of pre-computing apps do.
Syntonicles 6y ago
I have no quarrel with the assertion that reading is important. I'm suspicious of the need for pre-reading (letters) If a child shows great initiative with letters, they'll do well with reading. But why not just start with reading? Russian children don't start with letters on an IPad. They start later, immediately tackling classic literature.
- quacked 6y ago
  This analogy is not accurate. It is impossible to read without understanding letters; it is not impossible to program without completing simple pre-programming exercises on an iPad. Other people in this thread are pitching simplified programming exercises as an advantageous performance benefit for children to show them before real programming. This is akin to showing kids simplified reading exercises before reading. I do not believe there is any tangible long term benefit to making kids look at a picture of a dog and choose the letter "D" from a floating letter cloud to complete __OG, and I also do not believe there is any tangible long term benefit to making kids complete simple loop structures on an iPad or in a video game in advance of actually starting to program. It is not crucial for the development of children for adults to provide them with neutered facsimiles of reality.