3 ms·

There is obviously a balance to be struck here and I don't think we yet have a great framework for thinking about such problems. A lot of what makes a nice soci

There is obviously a balance to be struck here and I don't think we yet have a great framework for thinking about such problems. A lot of what makes a nice society is social norms and conventions. The group must have a way of punishing bad behavior or that system falls apart. If there are no consequences for "acting like a Karen" what is the social incentive to stop behaving like an angry toddler anytime you don't get your way? Now extend this to even more extreme behavior like people who say you should be killed just for existing because you're an abomination. Is the argument that we should just get along and there shouldn't be any social consequences for that? Such a view would be incredibly naive at best. On the flip side clearly people's views do sometimes change, people make mistakes, etc. Changing minds and hearts is a process, not a one-time event, so complete shunning for any perceived slight is rather extreme and can be counterproductive.

exporectomy 6y ago
> A lot of what makes a nice society is social norms and conventions. The group must have a way of punishing bad behavior or that system falls apart. Yes. But it's a problem when different cultures coexist and see each other's good behavior as bad. Societies that kill their "abominations" are also enforcing their social norms. And they may even be right to do so given the environment they live in and their desire to continue existing as a society. Modern western culture has the luxury of being very tolerant of diverse types of people because we're so wealthy and safe, but many societies or their members are closer to the brink and the presence of too many ineffective or counter-productive members is an existential threat.
watwut 6y ago
Interestingly, the most common use of Karen I have seen is women being assertive and actually right. Yes, sometimes it is in racist or exaggerating context. But, most often, Karen is used to shut up woman who don't want to be doormat or is telling you off for good reason.
- exporectomy 6y ago
  You can respectfully communicate your feelings about somebody without being horrible and hurting people or losing control and getting laughed at. It's not easy but women shouldn't aspire to be bitches because they might succeed and then everyone suffers.
  - watwut 6y ago
    The goal of those encounters is not to communicate feelings. Typically, people you are interacting with don't care about them and nuanced explanation won't change anything. The goal is and as when men do the same - make them stop or at least minimize. Or vent frustration, sometimes. Respectfully communicating feelings about somebody being horrible and hurting people rarely achieves anything. Cause horrible people hurting people don't care about your feelings.
    - exporectomy 6y ago
      You might be talking about something different. I'm thinking of the stereotypical Karen who's angry at the shop assistant because of some pricing or stocking mistake made by somebody else. If your Karen is standing up for a victim of bullying, that's not really what Karen commonly means, I don't think.

exporectomy 6y ago

> A lot of what makes a nice society is social norms and conventions. The group must have a way of punishing bad behavior or that system falls apart. Yes. But it's a problem when different cultures coexist and see each other's good behavior as bad. Societies that kill their "abominations" are also enforcing their social norms. And they may even be right to do so given the environment they live in and their desire to continue existing as a society. Modern western culture has the luxury of being very tolerant of diverse types of people because we're so wealthy and safe, but many societies or their members are closer to the brink and the presence of too many ineffective or counter-productive members is an existential threat.

watwut 6y ago

Interestingly, the most common use of Karen I have seen is women being assertive and actually right. Yes, sometimes it is in racist or exaggerating context. But, most often, Karen is used to shut up woman who don't want to be doormat or is telling you off for good reason.

exporectomy 6y ago
You can respectfully communicate your feelings about somebody without being horrible and hurting people or losing control and getting laughed at. It's not easy but women shouldn't aspire to be bitches because they might succeed and then everyone suffers.
- watwut 6y ago
  The goal of those encounters is not to communicate feelings. Typically, people you are interacting with don't care about them and nuanced explanation won't change anything. The goal is and as when men do the same - make them stop or at least minimize. Or vent frustration, sometimes. Respectfully communicating feelings about somebody being horrible and hurting people rarely achieves anything. Cause horrible people hurting people don't care about your feelings.
  - exporectomy 6y ago
    You might be talking about something different. I'm thinking of the stereotypical Karen who's angry at the shop assistant because of some pricing or stocking mistake made by somebody else. If your Karen is standing up for a victim of bullying, that's not really what Karen commonly means, I don't think.