7 ms·

While I support the general proposition that students should not be punished for off-campus speech, there is more to this case. My daughter is a cheerleader, a

While I support the general proposition that students should not be punished for off-campus speech, there is more to this case. My daughter is a cheerleader, a voluntary association within the school, which has a strict code of conduct. There are rules against public intoxication, sexual promiscuity, and disparagement of the school. So, it is a case of a student violating a voluntary association's code of conduct and being removed from that association. I think this is distinguished from a normal school/student free speech relationship. I look forward to reading the court's opinion.

kube-system 5y ago
It's irrelevant whether it's voluntary or not, it matters whether it's an establishment of the state.
- tantalor 5y ago
  No. Schools are obviously allowed to limit speech inside the classroom. The question is whether that right extends outside.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    I was responding to the above assertion that the voluntary nature of the program is relevant, in regards to the situation in the parent comment. I wasn't referring to the case in the top-level post.
- joshuaheard 5y ago
  Actually one of the issues in the case was whether she waived her 1st Am rights by voluntarily joining the team. https://casetext.com/case/us-v-levy-22 https://casetext.com/case/us-v-levy-22
  - kube-system 5y ago
    Did you post the wrong link? Looks like that's about a case regarding distribution of heroin in the 80s? I have not seen any analysis that suggests that the school district has used that argument, but I'd be interesting in reading it. The analysis here[0] (which is the most detailed I've seen) suggests that Mahanoy is arguing that this off-campus speech is causing on-campus harm. [0]: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/cert/20-255 https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/cert/20-255
    - joshuaheard 5y ago
      Oops, sorry. Here is the correct link. https://casetext.com/case/bl-v-mahanoy-area-sch-dist-2 https://casetext.com/case/bl-v-mahanoy-area-sch-dist-2 In Part II B. iii Section B: "B.L. Did Not Waive Her Free Speech Rights", the court discusses the defense of waiver for voluntary activities with a separate code of conduct. "The School District next argues that by agreeing to certain school and team rules, B.L. waived her First Amendment right to post the “fuck cheer” snap. We disagree."
      - kube-system 5y ago
        Ah interesting. Looks like that claim was pretty strongly rejected though, as it should be.
josefresco 5y ago
They actually have rules against "sexual promiscuity"? What do those rules look like and how are they enforced? Is it just a dress code, or do they actually discipline students for being "promiscuous".
- klyrs 5y ago
  I can't help but wonder if the football team also has such rules
  - agloeregrets 5y ago
    If anything, sexual promiscuity is how you get respected and are more likely to play in games.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - bart_spoon 5y ago
      Look, I realize there can be a double standard, but please, this is a bit much. As someone who played on the football team, you are more likely to play in games by being bigger, stronger, faster, and more intense than the other dudes at your position. Coaches give no consideration to anything beyond that.
  - filoleg 5y ago
    From what I personally have seen and heard from other people, football teams either have no such rules or those rules are not enforced about 100% of the time.
- dls2016 5y ago
  > how are they enforced? I can guarantee these rules are not enforced uniformly across socioeconomic class.
stickfigure 5y ago
Is this voluntary association supported with public funds? Managed by public employees?
LanceH 5y ago
If you go with the "voluntary association" defense, it is just a different flavor of lawsuit. The requirement for association means giving up your free speech rights, which a high school cheer team has no business requiring.
rdtwo 5y ago
I question the reason why the state has any right to make rules about sexual promiscuity but whatever
Hfjfjdjfjceijfj 5y ago
My understanding is that the first amendment prohibits federal and state governments (and therefore public schools) from placing restrictions on free speech in the first place. Therefore, parts of the code of conduct are unconstitutional and so unenforceable.

kube-system 5y ago

It's irrelevant whether it's voluntary or not, it matters whether it's an establishment of the state.

tantalor 5y ago
No. Schools are obviously allowed to limit speech inside the classroom. The question is whether that right extends outside.
- kube-system 5y ago
  I was responding to the above assertion that the voluntary nature of the program is relevant, in regards to the situation in the parent comment. I wasn't referring to the case in the top-level post.
joshuaheard 5y ago
Actually one of the issues in the case was whether she waived her 1st Am rights by voluntarily joining the team. https://casetext.com/case/us-v-levy-22 https://casetext.com/case/us-v-levy-22
- kube-system 5y ago
  Did you post the wrong link? Looks like that's about a case regarding distribution of heroin in the 80s? I have not seen any analysis that suggests that the school district has used that argument, but I'd be interesting in reading it. The analysis here[0] (which is the most detailed I've seen) suggests that Mahanoy is arguing that this off-campus speech is causing on-campus harm. [0]: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/cert/20-255 https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/cert/20-255
  - joshuaheard 5y ago
    Oops, sorry. Here is the correct link. https://casetext.com/case/bl-v-mahanoy-area-sch-dist-2 https://casetext.com/case/bl-v-mahanoy-area-sch-dist-2 In Part II B. iii Section B: "B.L. Did Not Waive Her Free Speech Rights", the court discusses the defense of waiver for voluntary activities with a separate code of conduct. "The School District next argues that by agreeing to certain school and team rules, B.L. waived her First Amendment right to post the “fuck cheer” snap. We disagree."
    - kube-system 5y ago
      Ah interesting. Looks like that claim was pretty strongly rejected though, as it should be.

josefresco 5y ago

They actually have rules against "sexual promiscuity"? What do those rules look like and how are they enforced? Is it just a dress code, or do they actually discipline students for being "promiscuous".

klyrs 5y ago
I can't help but wonder if the football team also has such rules
- agloeregrets 5y ago
  If anything, sexual promiscuity is how you get respected and are more likely to play in games.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - bart_spoon 5y ago
    Look, I realize there can be a double standard, but please, this is a bit much. As someone who played on the football team, you are more likely to play in games by being bigger, stronger, faster, and more intense than the other dudes at your position. Coaches give no consideration to anything beyond that.
- filoleg 5y ago
  From what I personally have seen and heard from other people, football teams either have no such rules or those rules are not enforced about 100% of the time.
dls2016 5y ago
> how are they enforced? I can guarantee these rules are not enforced uniformly across socioeconomic class.

stickfigure 5y ago

Is this voluntary association supported with public funds? Managed by public employees?

LanceH 5y ago

If you go with the "voluntary association" defense, it is just a different flavor of lawsuit. The requirement for association means giving up your free speech rights, which a high school cheer team has no business requiring.

rdtwo 5y ago

I question the reason why the state has any right to make rules about sexual promiscuity but whatever

Hfjfjdjfjceijfj 5y ago

My understanding is that the first amendment prohibits federal and state governments (and therefore public schools) from placing restrictions on free speech in the first place. Therefore, parts of the code of conduct are unconstitutional and so unenforceable.