16 ms·

Ethereum staking – More sustainable crypto

56 points by trirpi 5y ago

asaph 5y ago
> More sustainable > Validators don’t need energy-intensive computers in order to participate in a proof-of-stake system – just a laptop or smart phone. This will make Ethereum better for the environment. To me, this is the biggest win of proof-of-stake over proof-of-work.
- paulgb 5y ago
  I wonder if we’ll actually see flight from PoW cryptocurrencies to PoS at rates sufficient to reduce the current environmental impact. Anecdotally, a lot of the people I know who were early in Bitcoin are talking more about PoS coins as the natural progression and PoW as doomed tech. But until I actually see the transition happen, I remain (optimistically) skeptical.
- SavantIdiot 5y ago
  Agreed. However it still is dominated by the "haves" vs the "have nots". Proof of stake is awarded to those with the largest stakes, which favors state-sponsored miners and works against decentralization. I like how Monero's RandomX is designed to level the playing field: ASIC miners don't significantly improve over CPU mining so more people can participate in mining. Of course, this doesn't address pools, but it is a start. Yay proof of stake!
  - capableweb 5y ago
    > Proof of stake is awarded to those with the largest stakes, which favors state-sponsored miners and works against decentralization. Hopefully it won't be too bad. Here you can see the current involvement from different parties in the beacon chain https://beaconcha.in/charts https://beaconcha.in/charts Currently "others" is ~52%, Kraken is 2nd with ~17% I'm trying to understand a similar graph for Cardano (another PoS chain), but not sure I can tell anything from it about the distribution. https://cardano.bytemaniac.net/istoria/ https://cardano.bytemaniac.net/istoria/
    - SwagtimusPrime 5y ago
      it's also important to note that stakers can not withdraw yet. once withdrawal functionality is enabled I expect many more folks to stake their ETH because the uncertainty will be gone.
  - SwagtimusPrime 5y ago
    >However it still is dominated by the "haves" vs the "have nots". Proof of stake is awarded to those with the largest stakes, which favors state-sponsored miners and works against decentralization. where is the difference to mining? To mine you need GPUs and electricity which you can equate to $$$, just like capital you lock up under PoS. it effectively makes no difference. and everyone earns the same percentages, whales only earn more in absolute terms.
    - billytetrud 5y ago
      The difference is in the real resources used. If energy and hardware are used, that's a real cost incurred on society. If only currency is locked up, that only puts a cost on the stakers. As far as the rest of society is concerned, the supply went down, so the value went up, and there's no difference.
    - SavantIdiot 5y ago
      The percentage is based on hardware invested or capital staked. I don't think it should be. That is just lazily giving a pass to whales to dominate what is supposed to be decentralized. Totally counter to the spirit of cryptocurrency.
      - DennisP 5y ago
        In PoS everybody gets the same rate of return. On Ethereum it's currently about 8% annualized, regardless of how much you have staked. On Bitcoin everybody gets about the same rate of return, but major operations can generally get first access to the newest ASICs or special deals for electric power, so their rates are better. No cryptocurrency has found a way to give the exact same rewards to every human participating. That'd require some kind of verified identity. It's always going to be a rate of return times amount invested in hardware/stake.
        capableweb 5y ago
        > No cryptocurrency has found a way to give the exact same rewards to every human participating. That'd require some kind of verified identity. Proof of Humanity recently launched and claims to have solved this https://www.proofofhumanity.id/ https://www.proofofhumanity.id/
  - melolife 5y ago
    I would argue that under both proof of stake and mining your income is always directly proportional to the amount invested, either in equipment or stake. The main difference is the minimum barrier to entry, however under PoS you have access to various pooling services, which simulate consumer scale mining (complete with the associated inefficiency).
    - ryebit 5y ago
      Except under mining, increased investment opens up access to better equipment like ASICs, access to cheaper energy agreements, etc. But no amount of $ unlocks the ability to validate faster (per unit staked).
      - PurpleFoxy 5y ago
        And then everyone gets their hands on this tech so the mining difficultly goes up and you are back to square one.
        ryebit 5y ago
        History of stuff like Antminers has been stages of private access, high end market, then low end ... But while products are moving down those stages, more wattage-efficient ones are entering at top. I think you're right that ROI curve will get closer to linear (utility costs aside), but I don't think it's going to be a very fast progression.
        ryebit 5y ago
        To clarify: I don't think proof of stake is perfect. I think the original pie in the sky dream, as hinted at in the Bitcoin white paper, was for decentralization through anyone (all the way to students in their dorms) being able to participate in consensus. I don't think proof of stake gets things all the way there, but I think it does get closer to a linear ROI curve, compared to how proof of work is right now.
paulpauper 5y ago
Etherscan.io shows all the transactions being POW. When will we start seeing POS transactions?
- j_walter 5y ago
  Until ETH2.0 comes online you won't see it...it will be at least another 18-24 months till the transition is completed.
  - SwagtimusPrime 5y ago
    there is in fact a fast-merge proposal that has community & dev support with a preemptive date of October 2021, if we're conservative February 2022. Once the merge happened PoW will be shut down and all transactions will be validated by the Proof of Stake consensus.
- capableweb 5y ago
  Here you can see the POS blockchain https://beaconcha.in/ https://beaconcha.in/
rhn_mk1 5y ago
Staking requires putting aside 32 ETH for something around 2 years. That's a tad prohibitive at current prices.
- sprash 5y ago
  Staking can be pooled just like regular POW mining pools. However unlike POW mining pools you have to give the majority of your funds to a trusted party whereas with POW mining the maximum you can loose is the unpaid balance between payouts which is usually some days worth of mining.
  - SwagtimusPrime 5y ago
    there will be decentralized & trustless staking pools such as RocketPool, where even if a loss of funds occurs the loss is subsidized through the entire protocol.
- tobltobs 5y ago
  You may earn up to 7.8% APR (currently) on your stake.
  - TacoToni 5y ago
    if staking with a pool. if you run your own validator you currently receive about 7.8% https://launchpad.ethereum.org/en/ https://launchpad.ethereum.org/en/
  - notJim 5y ago
    Why would you stake at 7.8% when you can earn 10% on celsius ATM? Honest question.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - capableweb 5y ago
      It's not all about the amount of APY, also which ecosystem you want to belong to and who you trust will improve over time too. Ethereum vs Celsius is a no brainer at the moment.
rhema 5y ago
Can someone who knows more about Eth tell me if this staking is a 100% guaranteed to happen? Is there a chance that miners rebel or a fork is made?
- antocv 5y ago
  Miners will rebel and continue mining, some will mine on an ETH fork and others switch to other coins. GPUs will not be returned to gamers anytime soon.
  - lalaland1125 5y ago
    Theoretically the ETH PoW fork will drop in value relative to the original ETH. That would decrease the mining reward and result in less mining (and more GPUs returned to gamers).
    - antocv 5y ago
      You cant kill a PoW chain, see Dogecoin. Sad but it is what it is.
      - lalaland1125 5y ago
        The goal isn't to "kill" the coin entirely, the goal is to reduce the amount of mining by 99% or more. And that's an easily achieveable goal. See Ethereum Classic which only uses 1% of the resources of Ethereum because of how low its price is.
- lalaland1125 5y ago
  There is a high likelihood of a fork, but forks aren't necessarily harmful to Eth. The "rebelling" miners can't actually do anything to the proof of stake system. The real people who decide what fork wins are the exchanges and users, and those people have no real reason to stick with PoW.
- DennisP 5y ago
  It's pretty much guaranteed at this point. The staking network has been running since Dec. 1, with over 3% of all ETH staked so far. The initial migration is simple to implement and a high priority for the devs. Community support is very high, and once everybody switches to the new fork the miners have no influence. The miners could keep running the old PoW chain but it's unlikely to have significant value. Exchanges will support the PoS chain and some are already offering staking services. Tokens collateralized by off-chain assets will use the PoS chain. Etc. With the PoW chain having little value, miners will be deeply unprofitable and most of them will have to quit. Moving to other chains isn't much of an option because other GPU chains have little aggregate value.
TacoToni 5y ago
I am a solo staker and its been a blast learning about PoS and participating in the community. Right now you can earn ~7.8% rewards if you lock up your eth on your own validator. Once EIP1559 goes live (July) and the full transition to PoS merge around the end of the year there are some folks on the ETH research team who see rewards conservatievly going to ~25% [1] [1] https://twitter.com/drakefjustin/status/1384124998084792324?s=20 https://twitter.com/drakefjustin/status/1384124998084792324?...
- gher-shyu3i 5y ago
  How do the rewards APR change with the more validators there are?
  - TacoToni 5y ago
    The staking base rewards will go down as more stakers stake eth, however, after the merge to PoS (End of year target) fee revenue will be awarded to stakers in addition to the primary staking rewards.
- blhack 5y ago
  What does the process for staking actually look like? I remember setting up lightning a bunch of years ago and ended up losing some fractions of BTC by messing things up along the way. Is there something foolproof for staking right now, or is it a lot of "git clone this repo, copy this address to a config file" etc.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    Here is a easy wizard for staking eth2 https://launchpad.ethereum.org/en/ https://launchpad.ethereum.org/en/
godelski 5y ago
Can someone better inform me how POS actually works? Can you actually have proof of any arbitrary (but consistent) action?
- capableweb 5y ago
  Seems like it, here's Algorand's Pure Proof-of-Stake approach as an example https://algorand.foundation/algorand-protocol/about-algorand-protocol/pure-proof-of-stake https://algorand.foundation/algorand-protocol/about-algorand...
kaliali 5y ago
Ethereum staking Still will have high gas fees.
- SwagtimusPrime 5y ago
  it's not like solutions are heavily being worked on: https://ethereum-magicians.org/t/a-rollup-centric-ethereum-roadmap/4698 https://ethereum-magicians.org/t/a-rollup-centric-ethereum-r..., https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/04/07/sharding.html https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/04/07/sharding.html, https://ethresear.ch/t/complete-revamp-of-the-stateless-ethereum-roadmap/8592 https://ethresear.ch/t/complete-revamp-of-the-stateless-ethe...
antocv 5y ago
Why wait for ETH when we already have a better sustainable currency, more secure and which supports ETH contracts out of the box? Avalanche.
- devmunchies 5y ago
  network effects. integrations. ecosystems. its why any big consumer app isn't easily displaced.
  - antocv 5y ago
    Same can be said why ETH PoW wont be displaced. Too much is already invested in it. Move to a different project altogether, if you want a sustainable future.
    - DennisP 5y ago
      Ethereum has hard-forked a couple times a year since inception, carrying the ecosystem along with it. Switching to PoS is just another fork.
johnny_b_g 5y ago
This is one story you won't see show up on toxic-Bitcoin-Bro-loving Slashdot.
ArcFeind 5y ago
Reading through the FAQ on staking it says you will get penalties for being offline and the network eats through 800mb/hour which comes out to around 576gb/month. Is this practical to do at home? Or are pools the way to go for people on consumer home internet?
- ArcFeind 5y ago
  This is the website it links to if you chose <32ETH route to join pools. https://beaconcha.in/stakingServices https://beaconcha.in/stakingServices If I have 32ETH but don't want to run this on my home internet, how do you compare pools because the fees are all over the place?
- TacoToni 5y ago
  Great question! The penalties for being offline are equal to the rewards you would have earned. It is okay to be offline if you have minor outage for few hours or if you're moving and will be offline for a few days. You simply would need to go back online for the same amount of time to make your rewards back. I am a solo staker. My machine churns through about 800 gb/month. I am a huge advocate for solo staking if you have the hardware and have technical ability. I work in finance not software engineering, and i was able to set a machine up with no issue. Check out the link below if you would like more resources or if you have any questions! https://www.reddit.com/r/ethstaker/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ethstaker/
  - ArcFeind 5y ago
    Thanks I'll check out the subreddit to keep learning about this. Been putting it off for months. I don't think I can do staking at home because Comcast would shut me down if I start using 800gb/mo
- blackearl 5y ago
  I believe you need a minimum of 32 eth so unless you're confident in your internet connection and have ~$80,000 in eth, you're better off with a pool.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
CynicusRex 5y ago
Who gets rich when people buy the “coin”?
jude- 5y ago
> Rewards are given for actions that help the network reach consensus. You'll get rewards for batching transactions into a new block or checking the work of other validators because that's what keeps the chain running securely. The unstated gotcha here is that the chain operates through a variation of BFT agreement where staked coins vote for new blocks. All the usual BFT constraints apply -- namely, if fewer than 66% of the staked coins can reach a quorum, the chain stalls. This would mean that the network is only as resilient as the nodes that contribute the least-resilient 33% of the coin votes. I bring this up because it has some pretty terrible resiliency implications below. > Although you can earn rewards for doing work that benefits the network, you can lose ETH for malicious actions, going offline, and failing to validate. If the coin is successful, then this really serves to incentivize DDoS attacks. PoS is fundamentally a "rich-get-richer" system -- the means of making new coins tomorrow are intrinsically tied to owning coins today by the protocol itself. There's no way around this. This intrinsic coupling has two significant economic implications, which in turn impact the chain's resiliency: * The price of coins is a function of their expected future revenue from staking. If you want to become a staker, the expected value you'll pay for your coins will include not only the spot price of the token, but also all the future (but time-discounted) revenue that coin will earn you from staking it. This is the lower-bound case, too -- if there's something even more profitable than staking you could be using the coins for, then the expected price of the coin will reflect that activity instead of staking. * Coins minted from staking would need to be continuously re-staked in order to maintain current profitability relative to your competitors. Stakers can't afford not to do this, unless there's a buyer (or use-case) that can give an even higher ROI than all future ROI from staking block rewards. This impacts chain resiliency as follows: * There will never be any spare capacity for fail-over, since staking your coins will always be more profitable than keeping them on stand-by in order to recover from failed block producers. If the chain encounters a liveness failure (e.g. more than 33% of the staked coins go offline), new block producers can't just step in and take over without buying the coin first (and the more successful / long-term-valuable the coin is, the higher that price will be). The price of the token would either need to first come down to whatever level the highest-bidding poor but honest block producer can afford, or the protocol would need to slash a portion of the 33% of offline coins until quorum can be met. Neither of these things is instantaneous, so you'd be looking at a dead chain for some non-negligible amount of time. (Note that this is not true for PoW -- mining rigs can lie dormant until the difficulty falls to the point where it's profitable to turn them on, thereby ensuring that a liveness failure in the profitable block-producers does not lead to an overall liveness failure for the chain). * It's very costly for new honest block-producers to join the network, which will make the network brittle. As the token becomes more successful and its long-term value realized, honest block producers will have to pay more and more up-front capital costs to start participating. The only people who can sell them coins to stake are their competition, so there's little seller information asymmetry to exploit here -- the seller knows exactly how much these coins are worth to the buyer for staking, so they will always price that in. This is a direct consequence of the means of coin production being tied to coin ownership. * If the coin is successful, then there will reach a point where the cheapest way for a block producer to grow their revenue from staking is to knock other staking nodes offline (or hack them and cause their coins to be slashed from bad behavior). There's no fail-over capacity to take over block production if the staking coin quantity decreases, so the attacker only needs to succeed once in getting their competition slashed. Then, their fraction of all coins staked will increase due to other coins getting slashed. (Contrast this to PoW, where the attacker not only needs to knock the competing block-producer offline, but keep it offline indefinitely). It would be a mistake to say that Ethereum 2.0 is in any way similar to Ethereum today. The economics of its PoS system make it more brittle, less resilient, and less egalitarian than Ethereum 1.0. Moreover, it would be misleading to say that Ethereum 2.0 is an open-membership system -- the economics make it so newcomers can't compete with the initial block-producers unless the price of the token always goes up faster than the initial block-producers believe it will.

56 points by trirpi 5y ago

> More sustainable > Validators don’t need energy-intensive computers in order to participate in a proof-of-stake system – just a laptop or smart phone. This will make Ethereum better for the environment. To me, this is the biggest win of proof-of-stake over proof-of-work.

paulgb 5y ago
I wonder if we’ll actually see flight from PoW cryptocurrencies to PoS at rates sufficient to reduce the current environmental impact. Anecdotally, a lot of the people I know who were early in Bitcoin are talking more about PoS coins as the natural progression and PoW as doomed tech. But until I actually see the transition happen, I remain (optimistically) skeptical.
SavantIdiot 5y ago
Agreed. However it still is dominated by the "haves" vs the "have nots". Proof of stake is awarded to those with the largest stakes, which favors state-sponsored miners and works against decentralization. I like how Monero's RandomX is designed to level the playing field: ASIC miners don't significantly improve over CPU mining so more people can participate in mining. Of course, this doesn't address pools, but it is a start. Yay proof of stake!
- capableweb 5y ago
  > Proof of stake is awarded to those with the largest stakes, which favors state-sponsored miners and works against decentralization. Hopefully it won't be too bad. Here you can see the current involvement from different parties in the beacon chain https://beaconcha.in/charts https://beaconcha.in/charts Currently "others" is ~52%, Kraken is 2nd with ~17% I'm trying to understand a similar graph for Cardano (another PoS chain), but not sure I can tell anything from it about the distribution. https://cardano.bytemaniac.net/istoria/ https://cardano.bytemaniac.net/istoria/
  - SwagtimusPrime 5y ago
    it's also important to note that stakers can not withdraw yet. once withdrawal functionality is enabled I expect many more folks to stake their ETH because the uncertainty will be gone.
- SwagtimusPrime 5y ago
  >However it still is dominated by the "haves" vs the "have nots". Proof of stake is awarded to those with the largest stakes, which favors state-sponsored miners and works against decentralization. where is the difference to mining? To mine you need GPUs and electricity which you can equate to $$$, just like capital you lock up under PoS. it effectively makes no difference. and everyone earns the same percentages, whales only earn more in absolute terms.
  - billytetrud 5y ago
    The difference is in the real resources used. If energy and hardware are used, that's a real cost incurred on society. If only currency is locked up, that only puts a cost on the stakers. As far as the rest of society is concerned, the supply went down, so the value went up, and there's no difference.
  - SavantIdiot 5y ago
    The percentage is based on hardware invested or capital staked. I don't think it should be. That is just lazily giving a pass to whales to dominate what is supposed to be decentralized. Totally counter to the spirit of cryptocurrency.
    - DennisP 5y ago
      In PoS everybody gets the same rate of return. On Ethereum it's currently about 8% annualized, regardless of how much you have staked. On Bitcoin everybody gets about the same rate of return, but major operations can generally get first access to the newest ASICs or special deals for electric power, so their rates are better. No cryptocurrency has found a way to give the exact same rewards to every human participating. That'd require some kind of verified identity. It's always going to be a rate of return times amount invested in hardware/stake.
      - capableweb 5y ago
        > No cryptocurrency has found a way to give the exact same rewards to every human participating. That'd require some kind of verified identity. Proof of Humanity recently launched and claims to have solved this https://www.proofofhumanity.id/ https://www.proofofhumanity.id/
- melolife 5y ago
  I would argue that under both proof of stake and mining your income is always directly proportional to the amount invested, either in equipment or stake. The main difference is the minimum barrier to entry, however under PoS you have access to various pooling services, which simulate consumer scale mining (complete with the associated inefficiency).
  - ryebit 5y ago
    Except under mining, increased investment opens up access to better equipment like ASICs, access to cheaper energy agreements, etc. But no amount of $ unlocks the ability to validate faster (per unit staked).
    - PurpleFoxy 5y ago
      And then everyone gets their hands on this tech so the mining difficultly goes up and you are back to square one.
      - ryebit 5y ago
        History of stuff like Antminers has been stages of private access, high end market, then low end ... But while products are moving down those stages, more wattage-efficient ones are entering at top. I think you're right that ROI curve will get closer to linear (utility costs aside), but I don't think it's going to be a very fast progression.
        ryebit 5y ago
        To clarify: I don't think proof of stake is perfect. I think the original pie in the sky dream, as hinted at in the Bitcoin white paper, was for decentralization through anyone (all the way to students in their dorms) being able to participate in consensus. I don't think proof of stake gets things all the way there, but I think it does get closer to a linear ROI curve, compared to how proof of work is right now.

paulpauper 5y ago

Etherscan.io shows all the transactions being POW. When will we start seeing POS transactions?

j_walter 5y ago
Until ETH2.0 comes online you won't see it...it will be at least another 18-24 months till the transition is completed.
- SwagtimusPrime 5y ago
  there is in fact a fast-merge proposal that has community & dev support with a preemptive date of October 2021, if we're conservative February 2022. Once the merge happened PoW will be shut down and all transactions will be validated by the Proof of Stake consensus.
capableweb 5y ago
Here you can see the POS blockchain https://beaconcha.in/ https://beaconcha.in/

rhn_mk1 5y ago

Staking requires putting aside 32 ETH for something around 2 years. That's a tad prohibitive at current prices.

sprash 5y ago
Staking can be pooled just like regular POW mining pools. However unlike POW mining pools you have to give the majority of your funds to a trusted party whereas with POW mining the maximum you can loose is the unpaid balance between payouts which is usually some days worth of mining.
- SwagtimusPrime 5y ago
  there will be decentralized & trustless staking pools such as RocketPool, where even if a loss of funds occurs the loss is subsidized through the entire protocol.
tobltobs 5y ago
You may earn up to 7.8% APR (currently) on your stake.
- TacoToni 5y ago
  if staking with a pool. if you run your own validator you currently receive about 7.8% https://launchpad.ethereum.org/en/ https://launchpad.ethereum.org/en/
- notJim 5y ago
  Why would you stake at 7.8% when you can earn 10% on celsius ATM? Honest question.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - capableweb 5y ago
    It's not all about the amount of APY, also which ecosystem you want to belong to and who you trust will improve over time too. Ethereum vs Celsius is a no brainer at the moment.

rhema 5y ago

Can someone who knows more about Eth tell me if this staking is a 100% guaranteed to happen? Is there a chance that miners rebel or a fork is made?

antocv 5y ago
Miners will rebel and continue mining, some will mine on an ETH fork and others switch to other coins. GPUs will not be returned to gamers anytime soon.
- lalaland1125 5y ago
  Theoretically the ETH PoW fork will drop in value relative to the original ETH. That would decrease the mining reward and result in less mining (and more GPUs returned to gamers).
  - antocv 5y ago
    You cant kill a PoW chain, see Dogecoin. Sad but it is what it is.
    - lalaland1125 5y ago
      The goal isn't to "kill" the coin entirely, the goal is to reduce the amount of mining by 99% or more. And that's an easily achieveable goal. See Ethereum Classic which only uses 1% of the resources of Ethereum because of how low its price is.
lalaland1125 5y ago
There is a high likelihood of a fork, but forks aren't necessarily harmful to Eth. The "rebelling" miners can't actually do anything to the proof of stake system. The real people who decide what fork wins are the exchanges and users, and those people have no real reason to stick with PoW.
DennisP 5y ago
It's pretty much guaranteed at this point. The staking network has been running since Dec. 1, with over 3% of all ETH staked so far. The initial migration is simple to implement and a high priority for the devs. Community support is very high, and once everybody switches to the new fork the miners have no influence. The miners could keep running the old PoW chain but it's unlikely to have significant value. Exchanges will support the PoS chain and some are already offering staking services. Tokens collateralized by off-chain assets will use the PoS chain. Etc. With the PoW chain having little value, miners will be deeply unprofitable and most of them will have to quit. Moving to other chains isn't much of an option because other GPU chains have little aggregate value.

TacoToni 5y ago

I am a solo staker and its been a blast learning about PoS and participating in the community. Right now you can earn ~7.8% rewards if you lock up your eth on your own validator. Once EIP1559 goes live (July) and the full transition to PoS merge around the end of the year there are some folks on the ETH research team who see rewards conservatievly going to ~25% [1] [1] https://twitter.com/drakefjustin/status/1384124998084792324?s=20 https://twitter.com/drakefjustin/status/1384124998084792324?...

gher-shyu3i 5y ago
How do the rewards APR change with the more validators there are?
- TacoToni 5y ago
  The staking base rewards will go down as more stakers stake eth, however, after the merge to PoS (End of year target) fee revenue will be awarded to stakers in addition to the primary staking rewards.
blhack 5y ago
What does the process for staking actually look like? I remember setting up lightning a bunch of years ago and ended up losing some fractions of BTC by messing things up along the way. Is there something foolproof for staking right now, or is it a lot of "git clone this repo, copy this address to a config file" etc.
- capableweb 5y ago
  Here is a easy wizard for staking eth2 https://launchpad.ethereum.org/en/ https://launchpad.ethereum.org/en/

godelski 5y ago

Can someone better inform me how POS actually works? Can you actually have proof of any arbitrary (but consistent) action?

capableweb 5y ago
Seems like it, here's Algorand's Pure Proof-of-Stake approach as an example https://algorand.foundation/algorand-protocol/about-algorand-protocol/pure-proof-of-stake https://algorand.foundation/algorand-protocol/about-algorand...

kaliali 5y ago

Ethereum staking Still will have high gas fees.

SwagtimusPrime 5y ago
it's not like solutions are heavily being worked on: https://ethereum-magicians.org/t/a-rollup-centric-ethereum-roadmap/4698 https://ethereum-magicians.org/t/a-rollup-centric-ethereum-r..., https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/04/07/sharding.html https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/04/07/sharding.html, https://ethresear.ch/t/complete-revamp-of-the-stateless-ethereum-roadmap/8592 https://ethresear.ch/t/complete-revamp-of-the-stateless-ethe...

antocv 5y ago

Why wait for ETH when we already have a better sustainable currency, more secure and which supports ETH contracts out of the box? Avalanche.

devmunchies 5y ago
network effects. integrations. ecosystems. its why any big consumer app isn't easily displaced.
- antocv 5y ago
  Same can be said why ETH PoW wont be displaced. Too much is already invested in it. Move to a different project altogether, if you want a sustainable future.
  - DennisP 5y ago
    Ethereum has hard-forked a couple times a year since inception, carrying the ecosystem along with it. Switching to PoS is just another fork.

johnny_b_g 5y ago

This is one story you won't see show up on toxic-Bitcoin-Bro-loving Slashdot.

ArcFeind 5y ago

Reading through the FAQ on staking it says you will get penalties for being offline and the network eats through 800mb/hour which comes out to around 576gb/month. Is this practical to do at home? Or are pools the way to go for people on consumer home internet?

ArcFeind 5y ago
This is the website it links to if you chose <32ETH route to join pools. https://beaconcha.in/stakingServices https://beaconcha.in/stakingServices If I have 32ETH but don't want to run this on my home internet, how do you compare pools because the fees are all over the place?
TacoToni 5y ago
Great question! The penalties for being offline are equal to the rewards you would have earned. It is okay to be offline if you have minor outage for few hours or if you're moving and will be offline for a few days. You simply would need to go back online for the same amount of time to make your rewards back. I am a solo staker. My machine churns through about 800 gb/month. I am a huge advocate for solo staking if you have the hardware and have technical ability. I work in finance not software engineering, and i was able to set a machine up with no issue. Check out the link below if you would like more resources or if you have any questions! https://www.reddit.com/r/ethstaker/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ethstaker/
- ArcFeind 5y ago
  Thanks I'll check out the subreddit to keep learning about this. Been putting it off for months. I don't think I can do staking at home because Comcast would shut me down if I start using 800gb/mo
blackearl 5y ago
I believe you need a minimum of 32 eth so unless you're confident in your internet connection and have ~$80,000 in eth, you're better off with a pool.
ClumsyPilot 5y ago

CynicusRex 5y ago

Who gets rich when people buy the “coin”?

jude- 5y ago

> Rewards are given for actions that help the network reach consensus. You'll get rewards for batching transactions into a new block or checking the work of other validators because that's what keeps the chain running securely. The unstated gotcha here is that the chain operates through a variation of BFT agreement where staked coins vote for new blocks. All the usual BFT constraints apply -- namely, if fewer than 66% of the staked coins can reach a quorum, the chain stalls. This would mean that the network is only as resilient as the nodes that contribute the least-resilient 33% of the coin votes. I bring this up because it has some pretty terrible resiliency implications below. > Although you can earn rewards for doing work that benefits the network, you can lose ETH for malicious actions, going offline, and failing to validate. If the coin is successful, then this really serves to incentivize DDoS attacks. PoS is fundamentally a "rich-get-richer" system -- the means of making new coins tomorrow are intrinsically tied to owning coins today by the protocol itself. There's no way around this. This intrinsic coupling has two significant economic implications, which in turn impact the chain's resiliency: * The price of coins is a function of their expected future revenue from staking. If you want to become a staker, the expected value you'll pay for your coins will include not only the spot price of the token, but also all the future (but time-discounted) revenue that coin will earn you from staking it. This is the lower-bound case, too -- if there's something even more profitable than staking you could be using the coins for, then the expected price of the coin will reflect that activity instead of staking. * Coins minted from staking would need to be continuously re-staked in order to maintain current profitability relative to your competitors. Stakers can't afford not to do this, unless there's a buyer (or use-case) that can give an even higher ROI than all future ROI from staking block rewards. This impacts chain resiliency as follows: * There will never be any spare capacity for fail-over, since staking your coins will always be more profitable than keeping them on stand-by in order to recover from failed block producers. If the chain encounters a liveness failure (e.g. more than 33% of the staked coins go offline), new block producers can't just step in and take over without buying the coin first (and the more successful / long-term-valuable the coin is, the higher that price will be). The price of the token would either need to first come down to whatever level the highest-bidding poor but honest block producer can afford, or the protocol would need to slash a portion of the 33% of offline coins until quorum can be met. Neither of these things is instantaneous, so you'd be looking at a dead chain for some non-negligible amount of time. (Note that this is not true for PoW -- mining rigs can lie dormant until the difficulty falls to the point where it's profitable to turn them on, thereby ensuring that a liveness failure in the profitable block-producers does not lead to an overall liveness failure for the chain). * It's very costly for new honest block-producers to join the network, which will make the network brittle. As the token becomes more successful and its long-term value realized, honest block producers will have to pay more and more up-front capital costs to start participating. The only people who can sell them coins to stake are their competition, so there's little seller information asymmetry to exploit here -- the seller knows exactly how much these coins are worth to the buyer for staking, so they will always price that in. This is a direct consequence of the means of coin production being tied to coin ownership. * If the coin is successful, then there will reach a point where the cheapest way for a block producer to grow their revenue from staking is to knock other staking nodes offline (or hack them and cause their coins to be slashed from bad behavior). There's no fail-over capacity to take over block production if the staking coin quantity decreases, so the attacker only needs to succeed once in getting their competition slashed. Then, their fraction of all coins staked will increase due to other coins getting slashed. (Contrast this to PoW, where the attacker not only needs to knock the competing block-producer offline, but keep it offline indefinitely). It would be a mistake to say that Ethereum 2.0 is in any way similar to Ethereum today. The economics of its PoS system make it more brittle, less resilient, and less egalitarian than Ethereum 1.0. Moreover, it would be misleading to say that Ethereum 2.0 is an open-membership system -- the economics make it so newcomers can't compete with the initial block-producers unless the price of the token always goes up faster than the initial block-producers believe it will.