5 ms·

you have it almost exactly backwards. we haven't lived in a high trust society (as you defined it) since before the protestant reformation, when the printing pr

by smhost 5y ago

you have it almost exactly backwards. we haven't lived in a high trust society (as you defined it) since before the protestant reformation, when the printing press liberated information that had been previously monopolized by the church. we're returning to a high trust society out of necessity because of economic forces that incentivize information asymmetry.

_jal 5y ago
Pretty sure the difference of opinion between the last two comments comes down to differing understandings of the word 'trust', and very different time scales.
giantg2 5y ago
Government is increasingly transparent compared to past history. You can see that in things like right to know, freedom of information, etc. There are still information issues in both discovery and presentation. The public trust is still very low. https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/09/14/americans-views-of-government-low-trust-but-some-positive-performance-ratings/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/09/14/americans-vi...
gnarbarian 5y ago
I love that you are considering things on that scope but there are still many high trust areas in the US. Small towns that are culturally and ethnically homogenous with fewer transients are almost always high trust. It's pointless to steal someone's car in a town of 30 families. everyone would know exactly where it went. You also know exactly who you are doing harm to so your sense of sympathy kicks in making you less likely to do it. These tight knit low population towns seem to naturally create a high-trust honor culture. Small towns have a higher level of social integration so wronging someone creates repercussions that flow back to the perpetrator through every one of their social bonds.
- giantg2 5y ago
  That might be true of the local government. Just ask them how feel about the Feds...
  - betterunix2 5y ago
    The irony is that corruption and abuse of power is far worse at the local level...
    - giantg2 5y ago
      In the small tight knit towns? I have seen some, but in my experience usually the occurrence goes up as the size of the town goes up. Rumors of any kind can spread rapidly in small towns. That can come back to bite the people (and their family) doing it.
      - betterunix2 5y ago
        In my experience, corruption is worse in tight-knit communities, but because the community is so small it winds up having a tiny impact / nobody cares. You can see an example right now in the Matt Gaetz case -- he is under investigation only because a corrupt county tax collector had been under investigation; that tax collector was under investigation because he took taxpayer money and bought a bunch of servers that he planned to use for some cryptocurrency side hustle, and then wound up burning down his office (apparently did not understand wiring and started an electrical fire). To put it another way, had it not been for a fire, the fact that this tax collector was embezzling the county's funds would have gone unnoticed, as would his involvement in the sex trafficking of teenagers (which is where the story with Gaetz starts). People only pay attention when things are happening at a scale they consider worthy of their attention. The reason corruption is less common at the higher levels is that people are focused on higher level officials; meanwhile, the fact that their local officials are breaking this rule or that rule goes unnoticed, unreported, or worse, happens with everyone's full knowledge and just gets shrugged off.
        giantg2 5y ago
- true_religion 5y ago
  It’s pointless to steal a car and keep it in town, but small towns still have petty theft. Everyone from a small town has a tale of “that family of thieves” who you know to watch when they come in your store. Sometimes they are legit thieves, sometimes it’s just bias.
- akiselev 5y ago
  > I love that you are considering things on that scope but there are still many high trust areas in the US. Small towns that are culturally and ethnically homogenous with fewer transients are almost always high trust. Some places are higher trust than others but the developed world is based exclusively on a high level of trust. An actual low trust society is so starkly different from what most of us on HN are used: it practically enforces a feudal, subsistence farming society. Living in the US, I don't remember the last time I had to show my receipt at the fast food counter or show any sort of identification when picking up food that I had paid for online. I've never once paid for a major/emergency medical operation or auto repair ahead of time. Hell, I left the dealership with my last car a full week before they received the check from my bank (in the Seattle area, so definitely not a small town). I don't think anyone has ever really verified my income or finances beyond a cursory credit check and some PDF that could be easily faked by anyone with a little computer literacy. Most mortgages are paid back over thirty years! In my old country, most people don't fully trust that the currency will even last that long. The systems reinforcing social behavior in larger groups are more complicated and easier to game, but they are definitely still part of a system based on high levels of trust.

by smhost 5y ago

_jal 5y ago

Pretty sure the difference of opinion between the last two comments comes down to differing understandings of the word 'trust', and very different time scales.

giantg2 5y ago

Government is increasingly transparent compared to past history. You can see that in things like right to know, freedom of information, etc. There are still information issues in both discovery and presentation. The public trust is still very low. https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/09/14/americans-views-of-government-low-trust-but-some-positive-performance-ratings/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/09/14/americans-vi...

gnarbarian 5y ago

I love that you are considering things on that scope but there are still many high trust areas in the US. Small towns that are culturally and ethnically homogenous with fewer transients are almost always high trust. It's pointless to steal someone's car in a town of 30 families. everyone would know exactly where it went. You also know exactly who you are doing harm to so your sense of sympathy kicks in making you less likely to do it. These tight knit low population towns seem to naturally create a high-trust honor culture. Small towns have a higher level of social integration so wronging someone creates repercussions that flow back to the perpetrator through every one of their social bonds.

giantg2 5y ago
That might be true of the local government. Just ask them how feel about the Feds...
- betterunix2 5y ago
  The irony is that corruption and abuse of power is far worse at the local level...
  - giantg2 5y ago
    In the small tight knit towns? I have seen some, but in my experience usually the occurrence goes up as the size of the town goes up. Rumors of any kind can spread rapidly in small towns. That can come back to bite the people (and their family) doing it.
    - betterunix2 5y ago
      In my experience, corruption is worse in tight-knit communities, but because the community is so small it winds up having a tiny impact / nobody cares. You can see an example right now in the Matt Gaetz case -- he is under investigation only because a corrupt county tax collector had been under investigation; that tax collector was under investigation because he took taxpayer money and bought a bunch of servers that he planned to use for some cryptocurrency side hustle, and then wound up burning down his office (apparently did not understand wiring and started an electrical fire). To put it another way, had it not been for a fire, the fact that this tax collector was embezzling the county's funds would have gone unnoticed, as would his involvement in the sex trafficking of teenagers (which is where the story with Gaetz starts). People only pay attention when things are happening at a scale they consider worthy of their attention. The reason corruption is less common at the higher levels is that people are focused on higher level officials; meanwhile, the fact that their local officials are breaking this rule or that rule goes unnoticed, unreported, or worse, happens with everyone's full knowledge and just gets shrugged off.
      - giantg2 5y ago
true_religion 5y ago
It’s pointless to steal a car and keep it in town, but small towns still have petty theft. Everyone from a small town has a tale of “that family of thieves” who you know to watch when they come in your store. Sometimes they are legit thieves, sometimes it’s just bias.
akiselev 5y ago
> I love that you are considering things on that scope but there are still many high trust areas in the US. Small towns that are culturally and ethnically homogenous with fewer transients are almost always high trust. Some places are higher trust than others but the developed world is based exclusively on a high level of trust. An actual low trust society is so starkly different from what most of us on HN are used: it practically enforces a feudal, subsistence farming society. Living in the US, I don't remember the last time I had to show my receipt at the fast food counter or show any sort of identification when picking up food that I had paid for online. I've never once paid for a major/emergency medical operation or auto repair ahead of time. Hell, I left the dealership with my last car a full week before they received the check from my bank (in the Seattle area, so definitely not a small town). I don't think anyone has ever really verified my income or finances beyond a cursory credit check and some PDF that could be easily faked by anyone with a little computer literacy. Most mortgages are paid back over thirty years! In my old country, most people don't fully trust that the currency will even last that long. The systems reinforcing social behavior in larger groups are more complicated and easier to game, but they are definitely still part of a system based on high levels of trust.