6 ms·

I think Jason Fried and DHH might take issue with, "You proved yourself wrong, I think." In addition to "Say no by default," one of their other points of advic

I think Jason Fried and DHH might take issue with, "You proved yourself wrong, I think." In addition to "Say no by default," one of their other points of advice has been: "Let your users outgrow you." 37signals has found that there's more people to sell to at the bottom, and when customers need/want more, they're free to find it elsewhere.

trafficlight 15y ago
Then perhaps 37signals need to make exporting existing Basecamp data for easy importing into the "next step up" products. As far as I know they only provided a raw XML data dump.
- nettdata 15y ago
  "Only"? How else would you have it provided to you? That's pretty well the most versatile form of the data you could get, I'd think.
  - mgkimsal 15y ago
    Agreed. It's really up to those other products to develop import routines for BC data. Wordstar didn't develop 'save as MS Word' functionality, but MS did WS imports just fine.
- jasonfried 15y ago
  You can also export your data in HTML format so you can still view your projects locally on your own computer: http://help.37signals.com/basecamp/questions/164-can-we-export-our-data-if-we-don-t-want-to-use-basecamp-anymore-what-format-is-the-export-in http://help.37signals.com/basecamp/questions/164-can-we-expo...
- SoftwareMaven 15y ago
  You have it backwards: tools that want to be the next step in the chain should make it trivial to import Basecamp data. 37signals has done their part by making it easy to get data out.
ddemchuk 15y ago
I explained this exact point to a friend today at lunch. He vehemently disagreed with me. No matter what the niche, or the market, there is always room for the simplest solution. Always.
- dkrich 15y ago
  That may be, but when the provider of said simple solution is simultaneously ratcheting up the price, people who are using the product will bleed over into other products. It seems to me that the people who are attracted to the most basic set of features will also have the least amount of pain shifting to a new product while having the lowest price elasticity.
  - wisty 15y ago
    Apple does OK charging high prices for simple products. The target market is prosumers - people who pay a bit more for a product that is (or is marketed as) a joy to use. Most software engineers are prosumers, so you either target them or the enterprise. Now, "onion" products are better - they let the user grow from a simple base. But a simple product is a lot easier to make, which frees up resources for marketing or other products.
    - mgkimsal 15y ago
      Apple doesn't typically raise prices - usually same price point and better hardware, more features, etc. The OP was taking issue with coming back to Basecamp and having to pay more than he used to, without getting any new substantive features. If Apple did this - raised their prices while also taking a 'less is more' approach wrt features, many of their most ardent supporters would eventually defect. re: basecamp - I knew several orgs in 2008-2009 that had paid versions of it. none of them liked it, but used it because it was something, and they were paying for it so it must be OK. I suspect that over time, BC will bleed enough paying users to the point where they'll reinvigorate the team and start adding more value. Then again, they may just raise the price and ride out their name brand making boatload of money for many more years to come.
    - 15y ago
railsjedi 15y ago
This is a really good point. 37signals approach make a lot more sense with that in mind. Still, it's a painful transition to outgrow a tool you've become dependent on and need additional functionality to do your job.
- sleight42 15y ago
  Change is painful! However, for some, so is learning to ride a bicycle without training wheels. And I say this in all seriousness.
- applicomhq 15y ago
  It's a good point if you don't think that you _can_ develop feature-rich software and still keep the interface nice and easy. It's an excuse if you believe that you _can_... I think you need to walk the line on this one. That's what we do with Apollo... We managed to include a CRM in there, and still keep the UI very simple. Tony Mobily http://www.apollohq.com http://www.apollohq.com
jasonfried 15y ago
For reference, here's our original post on this very topic in June of 2006 when Basecamp was 2.5 years old. http://37signals.com/svn/archives2/growing_in_vs_growing_out.php http://37signals.com/svn/archives2/growing_in_vs_growing_out... Today Basecamp is 7 years old. Signups are stronger than ever. Whenever we survey customers asking them what they love most about Basecamp, the top response by a mile is: it's simple, easy, and their co-workers and clients actually use it. It's not multiple choice either - the words "simple" "easy" "intuitive" show up more than any others in the open ended textarea. We've made Basecamp a lot better over the years. Some people still ask for more. Others say it's too complicated and they wish it was even simpler. Software development is a challenge. Everyone wants something different. So you do what you can to thread the needle and make as many of the right customers as happy as possible. Not everyone is the right customer. It sucks to lose a customer because we did something wrong, but it's OK to lose a customer if we just aren't the right fit anymore. People move on from all sorts of things. Clothes, houses, cars, jobs, relationships... Why not software? As circumstances change, one product may not fit someone forever. That's OK as long as it fits plenty of other people at the same time. Some customers stick with you forever. Others come and go. Many who go come back after trying other tools that promise them more but that no one actually used. In the end, the tool that actually gets used is the one that's the right fit for someone. It's really really hard to get people to actually use things. We've found that the simplest stuff is what actually gets used. It's why email is still the world's most popular project management tool.
- johnx123 15y ago
  Antennagate and now Jasongate:)) Make sure you don't lose another customer by responding to another customer:)
  - johnx123 15y ago
    Ah downvoting... lot of 37signals guys...
    - Confusion 15y ago
      Regular HN users also downvote inexplicable comments that add negative value.

trafficlight 15y ago

Then perhaps 37signals need to make exporting existing Basecamp data for easy importing into the "next step up" products. As far as I know they only provided a raw XML data dump.

nettdata 15y ago
"Only"? How else would you have it provided to you? That's pretty well the most versatile form of the data you could get, I'd think.
- mgkimsal 15y ago
  Agreed. It's really up to those other products to develop import routines for BC data. Wordstar didn't develop 'save as MS Word' functionality, but MS did WS imports just fine.
jasonfried 15y ago
You can also export your data in HTML format so you can still view your projects locally on your own computer: http://help.37signals.com/basecamp/questions/164-can-we-export-our-data-if-we-don-t-want-to-use-basecamp-anymore-what-format-is-the-export-in http://help.37signals.com/basecamp/questions/164-can-we-expo...
SoftwareMaven 15y ago
You have it backwards: tools that want to be the next step in the chain should make it trivial to import Basecamp data. 37signals has done their part by making it easy to get data out.

ddemchuk 15y ago

I explained this exact point to a friend today at lunch. He vehemently disagreed with me. No matter what the niche, or the market, there is always room for the simplest solution. Always.

dkrich 15y ago
That may be, but when the provider of said simple solution is simultaneously ratcheting up the price, people who are using the product will bleed over into other products. It seems to me that the people who are attracted to the most basic set of features will also have the least amount of pain shifting to a new product while having the lowest price elasticity.
- wisty 15y ago
  Apple does OK charging high prices for simple products. The target market is prosumers - people who pay a bit more for a product that is (or is marketed as) a joy to use. Most software engineers are prosumers, so you either target them or the enterprise. Now, "onion" products are better - they let the user grow from a simple base. But a simple product is a lot easier to make, which frees up resources for marketing or other products.
  - mgkimsal 15y ago
    Apple doesn't typically raise prices - usually same price point and better hardware, more features, etc. The OP was taking issue with coming back to Basecamp and having to pay more than he used to, without getting any new substantive features. If Apple did this - raised their prices while also taking a 'less is more' approach wrt features, many of their most ardent supporters would eventually defect. re: basecamp - I knew several orgs in 2008-2009 that had paid versions of it. none of them liked it, but used it because it was something, and they were paying for it so it must be OK. I suspect that over time, BC will bleed enough paying users to the point where they'll reinvigorate the team and start adding more value. Then again, they may just raise the price and ride out their name brand making boatload of money for many more years to come.
  - 15y ago

railsjedi 15y ago

This is a really good point. 37signals approach make a lot more sense with that in mind. Still, it's a painful transition to outgrow a tool you've become dependent on and need additional functionality to do your job.

sleight42 15y ago
Change is painful! However, for some, so is learning to ride a bicycle without training wheels. And I say this in all seriousness.
applicomhq 15y ago
It's a good point if you don't think that you _can_ develop feature-rich software and still keep the interface nice and easy. It's an excuse if you believe that you _can_... I think you need to walk the line on this one. That's what we do with Apollo... We managed to include a CRM in there, and still keep the UI very simple. Tony Mobily http://www.apollohq.com http://www.apollohq.com

jasonfried 15y ago

For reference, here's our original post on this very topic in June of 2006 when Basecamp was 2.5 years old. http://37signals.com/svn/archives2/growing_in_vs_growing_out.php http://37signals.com/svn/archives2/growing_in_vs_growing_out... Today Basecamp is 7 years old. Signups are stronger than ever. Whenever we survey customers asking them what they love most about Basecamp, the top response by a mile is: it's simple, easy, and their co-workers and clients actually use it. It's not multiple choice either - the words "simple" "easy" "intuitive" show up more than any others in the open ended textarea. We've made Basecamp a lot better over the years. Some people still ask for more. Others say it's too complicated and they wish it was even simpler. Software development is a challenge. Everyone wants something different. So you do what you can to thread the needle and make as many of the right customers as happy as possible. Not everyone is the right customer. It sucks to lose a customer because we did something wrong, but it's OK to lose a customer if we just aren't the right fit anymore. People move on from all sorts of things. Clothes, houses, cars, jobs, relationships... Why not software? As circumstances change, one product may not fit someone forever. That's OK as long as it fits plenty of other people at the same time. Some customers stick with you forever. Others come and go. Many who go come back after trying other tools that promise them more but that no one actually used. In the end, the tool that actually gets used is the one that's the right fit for someone. It's really really hard to get people to actually use things. We've found that the simplest stuff is what actually gets used. It's why email is still the world's most popular project management tool.

johnx123 15y ago
Antennagate and now Jasongate:)) Make sure you don't lose another customer by responding to another customer:)
- johnx123 15y ago
  Ah downvoting... lot of 37signals guys...
  - Confusion 15y ago
    Regular HN users also downvote inexplicable comments that add negative value.