5 ms·

All culture has always been political, the only thing that's changed is people taking offense at it.

by croon 6y ago

krapp 6y ago
People taking offense at politics hasn't changed either. George Carlin was doing bits on cancel culture (what used to be called "political correctness") forty years ago.
- croon 6y ago
  Fair enough, everything old is new.
- wccrawford 6y ago
  Cancel culture is political correctness, but applied to a person's entire history, always. Being angry at something someone just did is not cancel culture. But when you look at something someone did 20 years ago and they've already apologized and learned from it, but then still insist they not have a job because of it, that's cancel culture. Cancel Culture is the opposite of "the right to be forgotten". But you're correct that people have always taken offense at politics. I can't imagine that ever wasn't the case.
  - everdrive 6y ago
    I generally agree with you, but I would say that something like "donglegate" also fits in the cancel culture spectrum. Would you agree? Should there be a different term for it? (maybe just twitter shaming, followed by the modern rule that if you get too much attention on twitter you will be fired?)
    - wccrawford 6y ago
      I think there's definitely something there worth talking about, but trying to broaden a term to mean more will actually just make the term less useful, and it'll be harder to talk about both things instead. I'm not sure what I'd call "donglegate" other than "internet justice", but it wouldn't be "cancel culture".
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
Ygg2 6y ago
If everything is political, then politics is just background noise.
- ploika 6y ago
  Not at all. Different things are political to different degrees and levels of importance.
  - Ygg2 6y ago
    > different degrees and levels of But then the low level becomes baseline for apolitical.
- croon 6y ago
  I disagree, I wasn't stating it to be reductive, I was claiming that you can't find an IMDB top 250/Criterion collection/whatever fancy list of movies you prefer that doesn't have political statements. It makes them daring, the opposite of background noise.
  - Ygg2 6y ago
    That depends on how pedant you want to be about things being political. Movies like The Thing, Terminator, Alien, Aliens, etc. Don't really have a political message other than some vague politics as window dressing. Also since you said culture, and not FILMS. Give me the politics of Tetris, Pong, Super Mario, Donkey Kong.
    - rland 6y ago
      The Terminator included a graphic 10 minutes of Arnold Schwarz terminating an entire police station full of LAPD. I mean, I'm not sure what Cameron was thinking when he made it but I consider that a political statement no matter how anyone slices it.
    - croon 6y ago
      > Movies like The Thing, Terminator, Alien, Aliens, etc. Don't really have a political message other than some vague politics as window dressing. https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/a34518538/john-carpenter-2020-interview-coronavirus-trump-they-live-the-thing/ https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/a34518538/john-... https://gen.medium.com/the-scariest-thing-about-alien-is-how-real-it-s-become-fa2182d2207e https://gen.medium.com/the-scariest-thing-about-alien-is-how... https://www.forbes.com/sites/jerrybowyer/2012/06/13/the-politics-of-ridley-scotts-blockbuster-film-prometheus/?sh=60c077293e6a https://www.forbes.com/sites/jerrybowyer/2012/06/13/the-poli... https://www.bfi.org.uk/interviews/terminator-james-cameron https://www.bfi.org.uk/interviews/terminator-james-cameron > Give me the politics of Tetris, Pong, Super Mario, Donkey Kong You got me. Let me rephrase it as any culture with a message.
roenxi 6y ago
Well, that and the political forces at work are boring. The cultural creators are excessively partisan, and excessive partisanship is the death of interesting nuance. Interesting politics in a story is politics that challenges the orthodoxy and explores topics delicately. Partisans don't do that. They are the orthodoxy, and they can't handle nuance.
- dougmwne 6y ago
  Yup, pretty much. I am a progressive. I am deeply committed to it. And yet, I have been watching the death of art at the hands of the partisans. The depictions must be purely on message, whichever side you're on. The art's only function is to mouthpiece the values of the faction it belongs to. There's nothing interesting to say in mainstream art anymore because there's no room to say it.
everdrive 6y ago
That's true in a sense, but there have been times when the popular culture was more relaxed, and was a closer fit to the median of the country. Part of the problem of course is that there is not really a common, popular culture any longer. And so it's much easier for most people to feel estranged from Hollywood. Everyone's estranged, and no one has much in common. But, it's also the case that the modern moralism that's permeating everything is particularly catastrophic and melodramatic. For sure, there have been times in history when things were worse, but that's hardly cause to celebrate. Media can certainly become "less political" in a normal sense that anyone would recognize without making your comment untrue at all.
CountDrewku 6y ago
If people are suddenly taking offense to it that means the culture has shifted so far in one direction it's no longer relatable to the average person. The idea that people suddenly started being offended easier seems less likely than the industry falling off the political spectrum to the point people are sick of it.
commandlinefan 6y ago
> the only thing that's changed is people taking offense at it. So what you're saying is the the oscars have always been offending people, they're just offending different people now? If you're right, then the article still has an interesting point and it's something they should pay attention to: they used to have a big audience, and now they don't, so they must be offending the people that they used to be relying on. But that doesn't seem likely - the people most likely to actually be offended by the political tone of the oscars are the right-wing, traditional conservative types who ridiculed awards shows anyway. They've gone hard into the most extreme politics of the people who were tuning in to begin with and even they have gotten tired of the constant barrage of lecturing.

All culture has always been political, the only thing that's changed is people taking offense at it.

by croon 6y ago

All culture has always been political, the only thing that's changed is people taking offense at it.

People taking offense at politics hasn't changed either. George Carlin was doing bits on cancel culture (what used to be called "political correctness") forty years ago.

croon 6y ago
Fair enough, everything old is new.
wccrawford 6y ago
Cancel culture is political correctness, but applied to a person's entire history, always. Being angry at something someone just did is not cancel culture. But when you look at something someone did 20 years ago and they've already apologized and learned from it, but then still insist they not have a job because of it, that's cancel culture. Cancel Culture is the opposite of "the right to be forgotten". But you're correct that people have always taken offense at politics. I can't imagine that ever wasn't the case.
- everdrive 6y ago
  I generally agree with you, but I would say that something like "donglegate" also fits in the cancel culture spectrum. Would you agree? Should there be a different term for it? (maybe just twitter shaming, followed by the modern rule that if you get too much attention on twitter you will be fired?)
  - wccrawford 6y ago
    I think there's definitely something there worth talking about, but trying to broaden a term to mean more will actually just make the term less useful, and it'll be harder to talk about both things instead. I'm not sure what I'd call "donglegate" other than "internet justice", but it wouldn't be "cancel culture".
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

Ygg2 6y ago

If everything is political, then politics is just background noise.

ploika 6y ago
Not at all. Different things are political to different degrees and levels of importance.
- Ygg2 6y ago
  > different degrees and levels of But then the low level becomes baseline for apolitical.
croon 6y ago
I disagree, I wasn't stating it to be reductive, I was claiming that you can't find an IMDB top 250/Criterion collection/whatever fancy list of movies you prefer that doesn't have political statements. It makes them daring, the opposite of background noise.
- Ygg2 6y ago
  That depends on how pedant you want to be about things being political. Movies like The Thing, Terminator, Alien, Aliens, etc. Don't really have a political message other than some vague politics as window dressing. Also since you said culture, and not FILMS. Give me the politics of Tetris, Pong, Super Mario, Donkey Kong.
  - rland 6y ago
    The Terminator included a graphic 10 minutes of Arnold Schwarz terminating an entire police station full of LAPD. I mean, I'm not sure what Cameron was thinking when he made it but I consider that a political statement no matter how anyone slices it.
  - croon 6y ago
    > Movies like The Thing, Terminator, Alien, Aliens, etc. Don't really have a political message other than some vague politics as window dressing. https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/a34518538/john-carpenter-2020-interview-coronavirus-trump-they-live-the-thing/ https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/a34518538/john-... https://gen.medium.com/the-scariest-thing-about-alien-is-how-real-it-s-become-fa2182d2207e https://gen.medium.com/the-scariest-thing-about-alien-is-how... https://www.forbes.com/sites/jerrybowyer/2012/06/13/the-politics-of-ridley-scotts-blockbuster-film-prometheus/?sh=60c077293e6a https://www.forbes.com/sites/jerrybowyer/2012/06/13/the-poli... https://www.bfi.org.uk/interviews/terminator-james-cameron https://www.bfi.org.uk/interviews/terminator-james-cameron > Give me the politics of Tetris, Pong, Super Mario, Donkey Kong You got me. Let me rephrase it as any culture with a message.

roenxi 6y ago

Well, that and the political forces at work are boring. The cultural creators are excessively partisan, and excessive partisanship is the death of interesting nuance. Interesting politics in a story is politics that challenges the orthodoxy and explores topics delicately. Partisans don't do that. They are the orthodoxy, and they can't handle nuance.

dougmwne 6y ago
Yup, pretty much. I am a progressive. I am deeply committed to it. And yet, I have been watching the death of art at the hands of the partisans. The depictions must be purely on message, whichever side you're on. The art's only function is to mouthpiece the values of the faction it belongs to. There's nothing interesting to say in mainstream art anymore because there's no room to say it.

everdrive 6y ago

That's true in a sense, but there have been times when the popular culture was more relaxed, and was a closer fit to the median of the country. Part of the problem of course is that there is not really a common, popular culture any longer. And so it's much easier for most people to feel estranged from Hollywood. Everyone's estranged, and no one has much in common. But, it's also the case that the modern moralism that's permeating everything is particularly catastrophic and melodramatic. For sure, there have been times in history when things were worse, but that's hardly cause to celebrate. Media can certainly become "less political" in a normal sense that anyone would recognize without making your comment untrue at all.

CountDrewku 6y ago

If people are suddenly taking offense to it that means the culture has shifted so far in one direction it's no longer relatable to the average person. The idea that people suddenly started being offended easier seems less likely than the industry falling off the political spectrum to the point people are sick of it.

commandlinefan 6y ago

> the only thing that's changed is people taking offense at it. So what you're saying is the the oscars have always been offending people, they're just offending different people now? If you're right, then the article still has an interesting point and it's something they should pay attention to: they used to have a big audience, and now they don't, so they must be offending the people that they used to be relying on. But that doesn't seem likely - the people most likely to actually be offended by the political tone of the oscars are the right-wing, traditional conservative types who ridiculed awards shows anyway. They've gone hard into the most extreme politics of the people who were tuning in to begin with and even they have gotten tired of the constant barrage of lecturing.