8 ms·

It's impossible to sustain most big cities with just bikes for the last mile problem. It's just not practical to do your last mile on the cold or the rain every

It's impossible to sustain most big cities with just bikes for the last mile problem. It's just not practical to do your last mile on the cold or the rain every single day if you have a coastal or a very cold winter. Whatever that thing is that's there for those days is probably very similar to ride sharing, or it's just very good public transportation so that it's the last block and not the last mile.

wdb 6y ago
Plenty of people cycle to work or school no matter what the weather... A good raincoat helps
- throwawayboise 6y ago
  Plenty of people live with dirt floors too. Doesn't mean they like it.
  - djhn 6y ago
    I'm tempted to say this is an attitude issue? Perhaps it's even an idea the car lobby wants to promote. There's nothing inherently bad about rainy, slushy or snowy weather. It's just water. Getting wet is not going to melt you.
    - throwawayboise 6y ago
      No it isn't going to hurt me, but given the option, I would prefer to arrive at work dry and/or not needing to shower and change clothes.
    - _carbyau_ 6y ago
      Water does complicate things and takes extra effort to deal with. A car sidesteps it with a big set of convenience. While convenience is king for the end consumer that's what will happen for most people.
      - bluGill 6y ago
        Not really: you still need to get from where you park the car to the front door of where you are going. That is a shorter distance, but you still need something to deal with weather.
    - asdff 6y ago
      If your feet get wet in most shoes, they are wet the entire day. It sucks. Investing in the correct rain gear you need takes money and time to research options, both are things that not everyone has to spare.
      - adrianN 6y ago
        Not everyone needs to ride a bicycle all the time. But perhaps we can increase the number of people willing to do so by providing safe infrastructure.
      - Sharlin 6y ago
        Investing in a car also takes money and time to research options.
        asdff 6y ago
        Working people buy on price not on quality, for a car or shoes. They can't afford to be choosy. A $2000 car is a steep price but is much more reliable and/or safe transport than a bus, or bike which is why we typically see working class people in this country opt to buy cars as soon as they can afford them. Because the bus and bike experience is not reliable in this country for most people.
    - Noos 6y ago
      I feel like people haven't actually done those things here, they just say it as a matter of faith. It's miserable trying to bicycle in slush, or in near freezing temperatures. Bicycling any length of time in the rain also is miserable. Strong wind makes things worse, and there's only so much you can do to compensate. Let alone what happens when you get sick from a chill, or you work at a job that has lots of physical labor or standing time, or bike in high heat with no showers available at your job. I used to do so a lot as a young man, and it really does limit you. Sometimes you just give up the bike and walk, because the weather is that bad.
      - dmoy 6y ago
        I agree strongly. I did it, or tried, for months in Minnesota winter. It was unbelievably terrible. I was actually okay with the biking in 90+ degree heat, but it required more careful planning on water consumption. And, I have a pretty high tolerance for general wet misery. I once spent a weekend lying in puddles in the rain, and it was fine. But the winter biking, holy hell. The cold and road slush are the real killers for winter biking. The cold can make it physically painful, and the slush makes it both dangerous, and consumes a huge amount of time on maintenance - especially when it's a salt-brine slush. That stuff disintegrates your bike (or at least my bike).
ehnto 6y ago
> It's impossible to sustain most big cities with just bikes for the last mile problem. You've made an assumption that most cities have a period of un-rideable weather every year and that's just not the case.
- wolverine876 6y ago
  A majority of cities always have rideable weather? Which ones?
  - ehnto 6y ago
    Well it depends on who you ask I suppose, but there's rarely a day you can't ride in Adelaide Australia, certainly not so often that you would throw the idea of bicycles as a last mile solution out the window, and South Australia's climate pretty closely matches San Fran. It's also just not that bad to ride in the rain if you were prepared for it. It usually stops raining in ten minutes here anyway. It's just not a strong argument to not focus on bicycle infrastructure. I didn't say the majority have good weather either, I just disagree with the premise that "most" have unrideable seasons. Maybe "most" have an unrideable day or week but there are days you can't drive too and we don't pull funding from road infrastructure because of it.
    - gnicholas 6y ago
      Just FYI, I think Adelaide gets substantially hotter than SF. Adelaide's highest temperatures are around 110° F every year, [1] whereas SF rarely breaks 100° F. [2] In addition to different high temperatures, SF also has surprisingly cold summers. Having lived in CA for most of my life (and having visited AU once), I'd say the temperatures are more similar in Sacramento or Los Angeles, and to a lesser degree Palo Alto. 1: https://www.currentresults.com/Yearly-Weather/Australia/SA/Adelaide/extreme-annual-adelaide-high-temperature.php https://www.currentresults.com/Yearly-Weather/Australia/SA/A... 2: https://www.currentresults.com/Yearly-Weather/USA/CA/San-Francisco/extreme-annual-san-francisco-high-temperature.php https://www.currentresults.com/Yearly-Weather/USA/CA/San-Fra...
  - 6y ago
wolverine876 6y ago
Also, it's a solution for a physically able demographic. Elderly people and many others need last-mile transportation too - and they are even more dependent on it the physically healthy.
- djhn 6y ago
  We should be striving for a society where the elderly are just as capable of cycling as they are of driving. With electric motors assisting the subset of people not able to do so while also not qualifying for a disabled mobility scooter should be rather small.
  - wolverine876 6y ago
    While I am a strong advocate of biking, if my elderly relative falls, even once, it could be disastrous. In one elderly couple I know, they sustain permanent or serious injuries when they fall just walking, and they don't heal so fast or well. One slipped in the bathroom and broke their collarbone. The other slipped on the sidewalk and has permanently lost significant function in their left (dominant) hand. An injury that requires prolonged immobility, such as a broken hip, not uncommonly leads to death. No way are they riding a bike. Not only would they hit cement at bicycle speeds, they lack coordination, strength, and mental acuity. I have been in many situations on bikes that they simply couldn't handle. As one simple example, what happens if there is no curbcut or some other obstacle. I can simply lift by bicycle over any obstacle; they cannot always do that, and especially with the added weight of a battery, and then consider that a tricycle is the only feasible option for their balance.
    - adrianN 6y ago
      If you're fit to drive a car, you're fit to ride an electric tricycle at least in mild weather. Obviously we need options for people who can't drive anymore, and frailer people in bad weather, too. But that doesn't mean that bicycles can't play a _much_ larger role in last mile transportation than they do today.
goodcanadian 6y ago
I forget where I saw it, but someone did a study which showed that bike ridership was strongly correlated with the quality and maintenance of the biking infrastructure and either only weakly correlated or not correlated at all with the weather.
- pvarangot 6y ago
  There's no city in the world with bad weather and good biking infrastructure. How can they study that with data? Amsterdam is the closest I can imagine and it's a very small city so you usually bike a few blocks.
  - goodcanadian 5y ago
    I believe the study was done in Norway, but I am struggling to remember the details. The point was that no one had any problem with cycling in the winter if there were good bike paths where snow was plowed with the same priority as roads.
tonyedgecombe 6y ago
It's funny how you can't cycle in the winter in North America but you can in Scandinavia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU&t=749s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU&t=749s

wdb 6y ago

Plenty of people cycle to work or school no matter what the weather... A good raincoat helps

throwawayboise 6y ago
Plenty of people live with dirt floors too. Doesn't mean they like it.
- djhn 6y ago
  I'm tempted to say this is an attitude issue? Perhaps it's even an idea the car lobby wants to promote. There's nothing inherently bad about rainy, slushy or snowy weather. It's just water. Getting wet is not going to melt you.
  - throwawayboise 6y ago
    No it isn't going to hurt me, but given the option, I would prefer to arrive at work dry and/or not needing to shower and change clothes.
  - _carbyau_ 6y ago
    Water does complicate things and takes extra effort to deal with. A car sidesteps it with a big set of convenience. While convenience is king for the end consumer that's what will happen for most people.
    - bluGill 6y ago
      Not really: you still need to get from where you park the car to the front door of where you are going. That is a shorter distance, but you still need something to deal with weather.
  - asdff 6y ago
    If your feet get wet in most shoes, they are wet the entire day. It sucks. Investing in the correct rain gear you need takes money and time to research options, both are things that not everyone has to spare.
    - adrianN 6y ago
      Not everyone needs to ride a bicycle all the time. But perhaps we can increase the number of people willing to do so by providing safe infrastructure.
    - Sharlin 6y ago
      Investing in a car also takes money and time to research options.
      - asdff 6y ago
        Working people buy on price not on quality, for a car or shoes. They can't afford to be choosy. A $2000 car is a steep price but is much more reliable and/or safe transport than a bus, or bike which is why we typically see working class people in this country opt to buy cars as soon as they can afford them. Because the bus and bike experience is not reliable in this country for most people.
  - Noos 6y ago
    I feel like people haven't actually done those things here, they just say it as a matter of faith. It's miserable trying to bicycle in slush, or in near freezing temperatures. Bicycling any length of time in the rain also is miserable. Strong wind makes things worse, and there's only so much you can do to compensate. Let alone what happens when you get sick from a chill, or you work at a job that has lots of physical labor or standing time, or bike in high heat with no showers available at your job. I used to do so a lot as a young man, and it really does limit you. Sometimes you just give up the bike and walk, because the weather is that bad.
    - dmoy 6y ago
      I agree strongly. I did it, or tried, for months in Minnesota winter. It was unbelievably terrible. I was actually okay with the biking in 90+ degree heat, but it required more careful planning on water consumption. And, I have a pretty high tolerance for general wet misery. I once spent a weekend lying in puddles in the rain, and it was fine. But the winter biking, holy hell. The cold and road slush are the real killers for winter biking. The cold can make it physically painful, and the slush makes it both dangerous, and consumes a huge amount of time on maintenance - especially when it's a salt-brine slush. That stuff disintegrates your bike (or at least my bike).

ehnto 6y ago

> It's impossible to sustain most big cities with just bikes for the last mile problem. You've made an assumption that most cities have a period of un-rideable weather every year and that's just not the case.

wolverine876 6y ago
A majority of cities always have rideable weather? Which ones?
- ehnto 6y ago
  Well it depends on who you ask I suppose, but there's rarely a day you can't ride in Adelaide Australia, certainly not so often that you would throw the idea of bicycles as a last mile solution out the window, and South Australia's climate pretty closely matches San Fran. It's also just not that bad to ride in the rain if you were prepared for it. It usually stops raining in ten minutes here anyway. It's just not a strong argument to not focus on bicycle infrastructure. I didn't say the majority have good weather either, I just disagree with the premise that "most" have unrideable seasons. Maybe "most" have an unrideable day or week but there are days you can't drive too and we don't pull funding from road infrastructure because of it.
  - gnicholas 6y ago
    Just FYI, I think Adelaide gets substantially hotter than SF. Adelaide's highest temperatures are around 110° F every year, [1] whereas SF rarely breaks 100° F. [2] In addition to different high temperatures, SF also has surprisingly cold summers. Having lived in CA for most of my life (and having visited AU once), I'd say the temperatures are more similar in Sacramento or Los Angeles, and to a lesser degree Palo Alto. 1: https://www.currentresults.com/Yearly-Weather/Australia/SA/Adelaide/extreme-annual-adelaide-high-temperature.php https://www.currentresults.com/Yearly-Weather/Australia/SA/A... 2: https://www.currentresults.com/Yearly-Weather/USA/CA/San-Francisco/extreme-annual-san-francisco-high-temperature.php https://www.currentresults.com/Yearly-Weather/USA/CA/San-Fra...
- 6y ago

wolverine876 6y ago

Also, it's a solution for a physically able demographic. Elderly people and many others need last-mile transportation too - and they are even more dependent on it the physically healthy.

djhn 6y ago
We should be striving for a society where the elderly are just as capable of cycling as they are of driving. With electric motors assisting the subset of people not able to do so while also not qualifying for a disabled mobility scooter should be rather small.
- wolverine876 6y ago
  While I am a strong advocate of biking, if my elderly relative falls, even once, it could be disastrous. In one elderly couple I know, they sustain permanent or serious injuries when they fall just walking, and they don't heal so fast or well. One slipped in the bathroom and broke their collarbone. The other slipped on the sidewalk and has permanently lost significant function in their left (dominant) hand. An injury that requires prolonged immobility, such as a broken hip, not uncommonly leads to death. No way are they riding a bike. Not only would they hit cement at bicycle speeds, they lack coordination, strength, and mental acuity. I have been in many situations on bikes that they simply couldn't handle. As one simple example, what happens if there is no curbcut or some other obstacle. I can simply lift by bicycle over any obstacle; they cannot always do that, and especially with the added weight of a battery, and then consider that a tricycle is the only feasible option for their balance.
  - adrianN 6y ago
    If you're fit to drive a car, you're fit to ride an electric tricycle at least in mild weather. Obviously we need options for people who can't drive anymore, and frailer people in bad weather, too. But that doesn't mean that bicycles can't play a _much_ larger role in last mile transportation than they do today.

goodcanadian 6y ago

I forget where I saw it, but someone did a study which showed that bike ridership was strongly correlated with the quality and maintenance of the biking infrastructure and either only weakly correlated or not correlated at all with the weather.

pvarangot 6y ago
There's no city in the world with bad weather and good biking infrastructure. How can they study that with data? Amsterdam is the closest I can imagine and it's a very small city so you usually bike a few blocks.
- goodcanadian 5y ago
  I believe the study was done in Norway, but I am struggling to remember the details. The point was that no one had any problem with cycling in the winter if there were good bike paths where snow was plowed with the same priority as roads.

tonyedgecombe 6y ago

It's funny how you can't cycle in the winter in North America but you can in Scandinavia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU&t=749s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU&t=749s