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There are some tools [1] to allow the "harvesting" of existing EXPRESS models into SysML and to export XSD, JSON or EXPRESS schemas for delivery with the publis

by rjsw 6y ago

There are some tools [1] to allow the "harvesting" of existing EXPRESS models into SysML and to export XSD, JSON or EXPRESS schemas for delivery with the published standards. There will also be a way to map between existing models and new ones. The driver for this is to try to provide a way for ISO 10303-242 and ISO 10303-239 to interoperate better. SysML is also replacing the use of IDEF0 for the high-level requirements diagrams, finding IDEF0 software was getting too hard. [1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/canonical-xmi-tools/ https://sourceforge.net/projects/canonical-xmi-tools/

Rochus 6y ago
That's apparently a tool to exchange UML diagrams using XMI. There is even an EXPRESS meta model by the OMG (to automatically generate UML projections from EXPRESS specifications, not updated since 2015). No conclusions can be drawn from this about the roadmap of the ISO working groups regarding future editions of ISO 10303. However, you had referred to minutes of TC184/SC4 where decisions regarding the use of SysML should have been made. These minutes, or an official roadmap from ISO, where the use of SysML is foreseen, would interest me (and a lot of others too, I suppose).
- rjsw 6y ago
  Have a closer look at those tools, they do everything that I described and are what we are using in the document production process. I'm not copying committee working documents from ISO livelink to somewhere else. If you want to read them then join the working group, Switzerland used to be a Participating Member back in the 90s.
  - Rochus 6y ago
    > I'm not copying committee working documents from ISO livelink to somewhere else Well, then it makes littles sense to refer to these minutes as evidence. From our discussion, I conclude that there is no reason to believe (absent evidence to the contrary) that "STEP (ISO 10303) is moving to use SysML to define the models for the collection of standards", neither as a replacement of nor as an equivalent alternative to EXPRESS. As a user of the standards, I do not care much which tools the working groups internally use to develop the standards.
    - rjsw 6y ago
      Suit yourself, you will be able to get the new editions of ISO 10303-242 and ISO 10303-239 that use SysML in a couple of years. ISO 10303-243 will not provide an EXPRESS schema at all, only JSON.
      - Rochus 6y ago
        JSON seems to me a pretty poor alternative to EXPRESS. Are you sure it's not about using JSON instead of XML analogous to ISO 10303-28?
        rjsw 6y ago
        The authors of -243 use the JSON schema as an input to OpenAPI tools to build webservices. The Application Protocol model with definitions of what things mean is in SysML, this will also be included in the package for the standard. A new XML exchange format for models defined in SysML is being defined in ISO 10303-15.
        Rochus 6y ago
        Just had a look at the new ISO 10303-1:2021 (second edition, replacing the frist edition from 1994) which appeared in March. EXPRESS is still the primary description language and will obviously remain with us for a long time to come. Section 6.3.3 explicates "EXPRESS models provide the basis for all specifications of product information in ISO 10303". SysML is not even mentioned (in contrast to e.g. UML). Section 6.3.6 states "ISO/TS 10303-25 does not map all EXPRESS constructs to the UML meta-model, because that meta-model does not support all the corresponding EXPRESS concepts. The specified mapping is a one-way mapping from EXPRESS into the UML Interchange Meta-model". There is no reason to assume that SysML is more expressive than UML in this regard. ISO 10303-11 was last time confirmed in December 2019. ISO 10303-15 is apparently a technical specification on how to transform SysML XMI to XML Schema (XSD) format.
        rjsw 6y ago

by rjsw 6y ago

Rochus 6y ago

That's apparently a tool to exchange UML diagrams using XMI. There is even an EXPRESS meta model by the OMG (to automatically generate UML projections from EXPRESS specifications, not updated since 2015). No conclusions can be drawn from this about the roadmap of the ISO working groups regarding future editions of ISO 10303. However, you had referred to minutes of TC184/SC4 where decisions regarding the use of SysML should have been made. These minutes, or an official roadmap from ISO, where the use of SysML is foreseen, would interest me (and a lot of others too, I suppose).

rjsw 6y ago
Have a closer look at those tools, they do everything that I described and are what we are using in the document production process. I'm not copying committee working documents from ISO livelink to somewhere else. If you want to read them then join the working group, Switzerland used to be a Participating Member back in the 90s.
- Rochus 6y ago
  > I'm not copying committee working documents from ISO livelink to somewhere else Well, then it makes littles sense to refer to these minutes as evidence. From our discussion, I conclude that there is no reason to believe (absent evidence to the contrary) that "STEP (ISO 10303) is moving to use SysML to define the models for the collection of standards", neither as a replacement of nor as an equivalent alternative to EXPRESS. As a user of the standards, I do not care much which tools the working groups internally use to develop the standards.
  - rjsw 6y ago
    Suit yourself, you will be able to get the new editions of ISO 10303-242 and ISO 10303-239 that use SysML in a couple of years. ISO 10303-243 will not provide an EXPRESS schema at all, only JSON.
    - Rochus 6y ago
      JSON seems to me a pretty poor alternative to EXPRESS. Are you sure it's not about using JSON instead of XML analogous to ISO 10303-28?
      - rjsw 6y ago
        The authors of -243 use the JSON schema as an input to OpenAPI tools to build webservices. The Application Protocol model with definitions of what things mean is in SysML, this will also be included in the package for the standard. A new XML exchange format for models defined in SysML is being defined in ISO 10303-15.
        Rochus 6y ago
        Just had a look at the new ISO 10303-1:2021 (second edition, replacing the frist edition from 1994) which appeared in March. EXPRESS is still the primary description language and will obviously remain with us for a long time to come. Section 6.3.3 explicates "EXPRESS models provide the basis for all specifications of product information in ISO 10303". SysML is not even mentioned (in contrast to e.g. UML). Section 6.3.6 states "ISO/TS 10303-25 does not map all EXPRESS constructs to the UML meta-model, because that meta-model does not support all the corresponding EXPRESS concepts. The specified mapping is a one-way mapping from EXPRESS into the UML Interchange Meta-model". There is no reason to assume that SysML is more expressive than UML in this regard. ISO 10303-11 was last time confirmed in December 2019. ISO 10303-15 is apparently a technical specification on how to transform SysML XMI to XML Schema (XSD) format.
        rjsw 6y ago