4 ms·

Still seems low on details, but maybe this one? http://forums.truecrypt.org/viewtopic.php?p=94607 http://forums.truecrypt.org/viewtopic.php?p=94607

Luyt 15y ago
"The user received a subpoena duces tecum requiring him to type the passwords or pass phrases necessary to produce the encrypted contents of drives seized 6 months earlier. The true crypt user has attempted to comply but he is still being held in contempt." Did he forget his TrueCrypt password?
- joejohnson 15y ago
  In the forum post he says "Tell them that True Crypt can use more than just a password." Maybe he was using keyfiles?
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- shareme 15y ago
  Its a criminal case.,..which basically means if he judge requests a document that is encrypted on a hd than defendant cannot refuse or they are in contempt
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    And if the document does not in fact exist?
    - tedunangst 15y ago
      Presumably there is some evidence that it does exist, or the judge wouldn't be asking for it. If you send an email to a buddy saying "I've got some great stuff on my encrypted hard drive", the court will likely be interested in seeing some of that great stuff.
  - adamdecaf 15y ago
    What if you forget the password?
    - tedunangst 15y ago
      The same thing when they request a document that was lost in a fire: hope they believe you.
  - gst 15y ago
    I'm not familiar with US law. In most European countries (that do not have specific crypto laws) you neither need to give the judge any information (except your name and address), nor help the prosecutor (i.e., the judge cannot order you to open a safe, but of course he can try to break the safe hismelf).
    - sdfjkl 15y ago
      There was a similar issue in the UK recently: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11479831 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11479831
      - gst 15y ago
        Yes, UK and (afaik) France have special laws that require you to surrender cryptographic keys.
  - VladRussian 15y ago
    i don't get it. Is "you have the right to remain silent" limited only to oral means of communication? Or does it include the right to remain silent with respect to any means of communication, including writing, keyboard typing, sign language gesturing, etc ...?
    - HeyLaughingBoy 15y ago
      "the right to remain silent..." etc is the Miranda Act which applies when you are taken into custody but before you have been formally charged with a crime. It really just boils down to not having to say anything to the police without legal representation present. That no longer applies since he is now before a court and we can assume he has legal representation (or he was offered it and has refused). To answer your question directly: No, it applies to all methods of communication.
      - VladRussian 15y ago
        i was under impression that the right to remain silent is valid even before the court. Anyway, googling it, stumbled upon interesting reading : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_silence#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_silence#United_States "...the U.S. District Court for Vermont ruled that because the defendant had already cooperated as far as he had and already potentially incriminated himself, by stating his ownership of his laptop and providing law enforcement with partial access to it prior to his arrest, that he must now surrender complete access to all information on that laptop, even encrypted and potentially self-incriminating or confidential information.[20] Because the defendant had cooperated in part already, the Court ruled that the defendant must continue cooperation and provide the decrypted and potentially harmful information to the government..."
        HeyLaughingBoy 15y ago
        i was under impression that the right to remain silent is valid even before the court It is. That's what I meant by being in custody (arrested).
  - dvogel 15y ago
    The 5th amendment was written specifically for criminal proceedings. Why does the judge's request override his right to refuse being a witness against himself?
  - dedward 15y ago
    Okay - but what if the argument is literally "I can't - the keyfile is lost" or Ignoring the details of this case, what if the court is ordering you to decrypt something that isn't even encrypted? It's just random data? They assume it is. You assume it isn't. I suppose in this case, the fact that the someone of authority already saw unencrypted contents gives them enough reason to be confident the drive is encrypted and the defendant has the ability to decrypt it.
    - dunmalg 15y ago
      I'm partial to "I kept this week's password on a post-it note stuck to the keyboard. Did you lose the post-it?"
ctdonath 15y ago
It's really not clear at all what the demand regards. 5th Amendment doesn't apply when the "papers" refer to someone else.

Luyt 15y ago

"The user received a subpoena duces tecum requiring him to type the passwords or pass phrases necessary to produce the encrypted contents of drives seized 6 months earlier. The true crypt user has attempted to comply but he is still being held in contempt." Did he forget his TrueCrypt password?

joejohnson 15y ago
In the forum post he says "Tell them that True Crypt can use more than just a password." Maybe he was using keyfiles?
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
shareme 15y ago
Its a criminal case.,..which basically means if he judge requests a document that is encrypted on a hd than defendant cannot refuse or they are in contempt
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  And if the document does not in fact exist?
  - tedunangst 15y ago
    Presumably there is some evidence that it does exist, or the judge wouldn't be asking for it. If you send an email to a buddy saying "I've got some great stuff on my encrypted hard drive", the court will likely be interested in seeing some of that great stuff.
- adamdecaf 15y ago
  What if you forget the password?
  - tedunangst 15y ago
    The same thing when they request a document that was lost in a fire: hope they believe you.
- gst 15y ago
  I'm not familiar with US law. In most European countries (that do not have specific crypto laws) you neither need to give the judge any information (except your name and address), nor help the prosecutor (i.e., the judge cannot order you to open a safe, but of course he can try to break the safe hismelf).
  - sdfjkl 15y ago
    There was a similar issue in the UK recently: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11479831 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-11479831
    - gst 15y ago
      Yes, UK and (afaik) France have special laws that require you to surrender cryptographic keys.
- VladRussian 15y ago
  i don't get it. Is "you have the right to remain silent" limited only to oral means of communication? Or does it include the right to remain silent with respect to any means of communication, including writing, keyboard typing, sign language gesturing, etc ...?
  - HeyLaughingBoy 15y ago
    "the right to remain silent..." etc is the Miranda Act which applies when you are taken into custody but before you have been formally charged with a crime. It really just boils down to not having to say anything to the police without legal representation present. That no longer applies since he is now before a court and we can assume he has legal representation (or he was offered it and has refused). To answer your question directly: No, it applies to all methods of communication.
    - VladRussian 15y ago
      i was under impression that the right to remain silent is valid even before the court. Anyway, googling it, stumbled upon interesting reading : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_silence#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_silence#United_States "...the U.S. District Court for Vermont ruled that because the defendant had already cooperated as far as he had and already potentially incriminated himself, by stating his ownership of his laptop and providing law enforcement with partial access to it prior to his arrest, that he must now surrender complete access to all information on that laptop, even encrypted and potentially self-incriminating or confidential information.[20] Because the defendant had cooperated in part already, the Court ruled that the defendant must continue cooperation and provide the decrypted and potentially harmful information to the government..."
      - HeyLaughingBoy 15y ago
        i was under impression that the right to remain silent is valid even before the court It is. That's what I meant by being in custody (arrested).
- dvogel 15y ago
  The 5th amendment was written specifically for criminal proceedings. Why does the judge's request override his right to refuse being a witness against himself?
- dedward 15y ago
  Okay - but what if the argument is literally "I can't - the keyfile is lost" or Ignoring the details of this case, what if the court is ordering you to decrypt something that isn't even encrypted? It's just random data? They assume it is. You assume it isn't. I suppose in this case, the fact that the someone of authority already saw unencrypted contents gives them enough reason to be confident the drive is encrypted and the defendant has the ability to decrypt it.
  - dunmalg 15y ago
    I'm partial to "I kept this week's password on a post-it note stuck to the keyboard. Did you lose the post-it?"

ctdonath 15y ago

It's really not clear at all what the demand regards. 5th Amendment doesn't apply when the "papers" refer to someone else.