6 ms·

You can look at the minutes of any TC184/SC4 meeting for the last couple of years for a reference. I already explained why, people want to use visual tools.

by rjsw 6y ago

Rochus 6y ago
Can you please be specific and provide us with current links or official documents which support your statement? I know that there are some exponents (mostly with computer science, not systems engineering background) who don't like EXPRESS and would rather use SysML, but these are just opinions, not the official roadmap which affects the ISO 10303 standard series. It's possible that there will be an official mapping from EXPRESS to SysML (as far as possible) in future to automatically generate SysML diagrams (in addition to EXPRESS-G). But it's very unlikely that SysML will replace EXPRESS or be used as an equivalent alternative. EDIT: I remember similar discussions in the nineties when UML supporters questioned the appropriateness of EXPRESS.
- rjsw 6y ago
  There are some tools [1] to allow the "harvesting" of existing EXPRESS models into SysML and to export XSD, JSON or EXPRESS schemas for delivery with the published standards. There will also be a way to map between existing models and new ones. The driver for this is to try to provide a way for ISO 10303-242 and ISO 10303-239 to interoperate better. SysML is also replacing the use of IDEF0 for the high-level requirements diagrams, finding IDEF0 software was getting too hard. [1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/canonical-xmi-tools/ https://sourceforge.net/projects/canonical-xmi-tools/
  - Rochus 6y ago
    That's apparently a tool to exchange UML diagrams using XMI. There is even an EXPRESS meta model by the OMG (to automatically generate UML projections from EXPRESS specifications, not updated since 2015). No conclusions can be drawn from this about the roadmap of the ISO working groups regarding future editions of ISO 10303. However, you had referred to minutes of TC184/SC4 where decisions regarding the use of SysML should have been made. These minutes, or an official roadmap from ISO, where the use of SysML is foreseen, would interest me (and a lot of others too, I suppose).
    - rjsw 6y ago
      Have a closer look at those tools, they do everything that I described and are what we are using in the document production process. I'm not copying committee working documents from ISO livelink to somewhere else. If you want to read them then join the working group, Switzerland used to be a Participating Member back in the 90s.
      - Rochus 6y ago
        > I'm not copying committee working documents from ISO livelink to somewhere else Well, then it makes littles sense to refer to these minutes as evidence. From our discussion, I conclude that there is no reason to believe (absent evidence to the contrary) that "STEP (ISO 10303) is moving to use SysML to define the models for the collection of standards", neither as a replacement of nor as an equivalent alternative to EXPRESS. As a user of the standards, I do not care much which tools the working groups internally use to develop the standards.
        rjsw 6y ago
        Suit yourself, you will be able to get the new editions of ISO 10303-242 and ISO 10303-239 that use SysML in a couple of years. ISO 10303-243 will not provide an EXPRESS schema at all, only JSON.
        Rochus 6y ago
        JSON seems to me a pretty poor alternative to EXPRESS. Are you sure it's not about using JSON instead of XML analogous to ISO 10303-28?
        rjsw 6y ago
        The authors of -243 use the JSON schema as an input to OpenAPI tools to build webservices. The Application Protocol model with definitions of what things mean is in SysML, this will also be included in the package for the standard. A new XML exchange format for models defined in SysML is being defined in ISO 10303-15.

You can look at the minutes of any TC184/SC4 meeting for the last couple of years for a reference. I already explained why, people want to use visual tools.

by rjsw 6y ago

You can look at the minutes of any TC184/SC4 meeting for the last couple of years for a reference. I already explained why, people want to use visual tools.

Rochus 6y ago

Can you please be specific and provide us with current links or official documents which support your statement? I know that there are some exponents (mostly with computer science, not systems engineering background) who don't like EXPRESS and would rather use SysML, but these are just opinions, not the official roadmap which affects the ISO 10303 standard series. It's possible that there will be an official mapping from EXPRESS to SysML (as far as possible) in future to automatically generate SysML diagrams (in addition to EXPRESS-G). But it's very unlikely that SysML will replace EXPRESS or be used as an equivalent alternative. EDIT: I remember similar discussions in the nineties when UML supporters questioned the appropriateness of EXPRESS.

rjsw 6y ago
There are some tools [1] to allow the "harvesting" of existing EXPRESS models into SysML and to export XSD, JSON or EXPRESS schemas for delivery with the published standards. There will also be a way to map between existing models and new ones. The driver for this is to try to provide a way for ISO 10303-242 and ISO 10303-239 to interoperate better. SysML is also replacing the use of IDEF0 for the high-level requirements diagrams, finding IDEF0 software was getting too hard. [1] https://sourceforge.net/projects/canonical-xmi-tools/ https://sourceforge.net/projects/canonical-xmi-tools/
- Rochus 6y ago
  That's apparently a tool to exchange UML diagrams using XMI. There is even an EXPRESS meta model by the OMG (to automatically generate UML projections from EXPRESS specifications, not updated since 2015). No conclusions can be drawn from this about the roadmap of the ISO working groups regarding future editions of ISO 10303. However, you had referred to minutes of TC184/SC4 where decisions regarding the use of SysML should have been made. These minutes, or an official roadmap from ISO, where the use of SysML is foreseen, would interest me (and a lot of others too, I suppose).
  - rjsw 6y ago
    Have a closer look at those tools, they do everything that I described and are what we are using in the document production process. I'm not copying committee working documents from ISO livelink to somewhere else. If you want to read them then join the working group, Switzerland used to be a Participating Member back in the 90s.
    - Rochus 6y ago
      > I'm not copying committee working documents from ISO livelink to somewhere else Well, then it makes littles sense to refer to these minutes as evidence. From our discussion, I conclude that there is no reason to believe (absent evidence to the contrary) that "STEP (ISO 10303) is moving to use SysML to define the models for the collection of standards", neither as a replacement of nor as an equivalent alternative to EXPRESS. As a user of the standards, I do not care much which tools the working groups internally use to develop the standards.
      - rjsw 6y ago
        Suit yourself, you will be able to get the new editions of ISO 10303-242 and ISO 10303-239 that use SysML in a couple of years. ISO 10303-243 will not provide an EXPRESS schema at all, only JSON.
        Rochus 6y ago
        JSON seems to me a pretty poor alternative to EXPRESS. Are you sure it's not about using JSON instead of XML analogous to ISO 10303-28?
        rjsw 6y ago
        The authors of -243 use the JSON schema as an input to OpenAPI tools to build webservices. The Application Protocol model with definitions of what things mean is in SysML, this will also be included in the package for the standard. A new XML exchange format for models defined in SysML is being defined in ISO 10303-15.