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The main reason I push for Docker containers is that it's a universally-understood encapsulation of an app or service amongst technical and non-technical people

The main reason I push for Docker containers is that it's a universally-understood encapsulation of an app or service amongst technical and non-technical people alike. "I'll have John write a Docker service that handles the integration" is an easy goal for both management and John to understand. Behind the scenes, we can use some fancy deployment or just run it on a single machine like the author describes. I would definitely not be okay with an engineer in my organization telling me their plan is to ignore CI/CD, especially in the present age where GitHub Actions is trivially easy to set up, and rather set up some custom procedure over SSH. Technical choices aside, it fails the "hit by a bus" test - if you disappear for some reason, or even just your laptop gets stolen, does the company grind to a halt?

Toutouxc 5y ago
> if you disappear for some reason, or even just your laptop gets stolen, does the company grind to a halt As in, no one in the whole company knows how to scp a binary?
- saurik 5y ago
  To be fair, scp was officially deprecated: it is effectively "legacy knowledge" now, and so soon it will be difficult to find anyone who can use it effectively. https://lwn.net/Articles/835962/ https://lwn.net/Articles/835962/ In contrast, we all know that knowledge of the Docker container format is both universal and likely to "stand the test of time". That anyone would believe that merely downloading a binary and then running it directly could ever be easier than first downloading and installing Docker so that you can then run docker on yet another file clearly has never worked as a systems administrator.
  - minusf 5y ago
    if the app in question can be installed by dropping some files on some servers, how could another full layer of abstraction be easier? an encapsulation is by definition adding complexity.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- primitivesuave 5y ago
  I mean that it promotes a style of operating where a sudden change, for whatever reason, can cause all kinds of problems.
- gravypod 5y ago
  With CI Boss: "Alice, can you release Super Mega Money Maker" Alice: clicks deploy on a UI It'll be out in 5 minutes. Boss: "Thanks!" Without CI Boss: "Bob is out sick, can you deploy Super Mega Money Maker?" Alice: "Ok. hmm... I pulled the code and I'm trying to run the build but I'm getting an error. It wants a super-secret-token.pem file. Do you know where that is?" Boss: "Let me call Bob" "Ok, he said it's a file on his laptop but he left his laptop in the office. He's on his way in."
spfzero 5y ago
Well it's unlikely that person was the only one on your team that could run a two-line scp script. Choose any two engineers and their expertise in, and understanding of Docker is going to differ, but they should equally and completely understand basic file copy tools. I would guess you are more likely to be in the situation where only one developer really knows your complicated build tools and how exactly they are put together. That's your actual "hit by a bus" vulnerability.
- primitivesuave 5y ago
  You're missing my bigger point, which is that I want to use off-the-shelf tools because I can explain it more easily to other developers and management. GitHub Actions is not complicated.
viraptor 5y ago
You can commit the deployment script in the app repo. I'm not recommending not using ci/cd, but not using it doesn't mean you run every step manually from memory.
twic 5y ago
> Docker containers is [...] a universally-understood encapsulation of an app or service amongst technical and non-technical people alike On what planet does a non-technical person even know what a Docker container is?
- primitivesuave 5y ago
  I mean someone at the CEO/product manager level. They don't need to understand the details, and rarely do they. The anecdote that came to mind was a conference where a non-technical CEO gave a high-level explanation of "how Docker transformed my company" (not much substantive content) through all kinds of shipping container analogies.

Toutouxc 5y ago

> if you disappear for some reason, or even just your laptop gets stolen, does the company grind to a halt As in, no one in the whole company knows how to scp a binary?

saurik 5y ago
To be fair, scp was officially deprecated: it is effectively "legacy knowledge" now, and so soon it will be difficult to find anyone who can use it effectively. https://lwn.net/Articles/835962/ https://lwn.net/Articles/835962/ In contrast, we all know that knowledge of the Docker container format is both universal and likely to "stand the test of time". That anyone would believe that merely downloading a binary and then running it directly could ever be easier than first downloading and installing Docker so that you can then run docker on yet another file clearly has never worked as a systems administrator.
- minusf 5y ago
  if the app in question can be installed by dropping some files on some servers, how could another full layer of abstraction be easier? an encapsulation is by definition adding complexity.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
primitivesuave 5y ago
I mean that it promotes a style of operating where a sudden change, for whatever reason, can cause all kinds of problems.
gravypod 5y ago
With CI Boss: "Alice, can you release Super Mega Money Maker" Alice: clicks deploy on a UI It'll be out in 5 minutes. Boss: "Thanks!" Without CI Boss: "Bob is out sick, can you deploy Super Mega Money Maker?" Alice: "Ok. hmm... I pulled the code and I'm trying to run the build but I'm getting an error. It wants a super-secret-token.pem file. Do you know where that is?" Boss: "Let me call Bob" "Ok, he said it's a file on his laptop but he left his laptop in the office. He's on his way in."

spfzero 5y ago

Well it's unlikely that person was the only one on your team that could run a two-line scp script. Choose any two engineers and their expertise in, and understanding of Docker is going to differ, but they should equally and completely understand basic file copy tools. I would guess you are more likely to be in the situation where only one developer really knows your complicated build tools and how exactly they are put together. That's your actual "hit by a bus" vulnerability.

primitivesuave 5y ago
You're missing my bigger point, which is that I want to use off-the-shelf tools because I can explain it more easily to other developers and management. GitHub Actions is not complicated.

viraptor 5y ago

You can commit the deployment script in the app repo. I'm not recommending not using ci/cd, but not using it doesn't mean you run every step manually from memory.

twic 5y ago

> Docker containers is [...] a universally-understood encapsulation of an app or service amongst technical and non-technical people alike On what planet does a non-technical person even know what a Docker container is?

primitivesuave 5y ago
I mean someone at the CEO/product manager level. They don't need to understand the details, and rarely do they. The anecdote that came to mind was a conference where a non-technical CEO gave a high-level explanation of "how Docker transformed my company" (not much substantive content) through all kinds of shipping container analogies.