3 ms·

Think this is as much about the author's negative experiences of the culture in scientific research as it is about Feynman. Anyone who has read the book will kn

by ximeng 5y ago

Think this is as much about the author's negative experiences of the culture in scientific research as it is about Feynman. Anyone who has read the book will know something of both sides of Feynman, here she is saying that despite him describing his womanizing side as fun and playful it genuinely harms people like her who are trying to succeed as female scientists.

randombits0 5y ago
“Why do we bemoan the exit of sexual harassers, and those who otherwise harm their colleagues, from the scientific community? Instead, we should mourn the loss of all the promising scientists that they forced out, whose contributions will never be known.” Yet she was not forced out. Was that her choice? Should we also mourn the lost contributions of others forced out for weakness? Are we to support those forced out due to “unfair” weaknesses while agreeing to dismiss those forced out by “fair” weaknesses? The sexual/gender dynamic of social interaction is only one aspect that may be abused. There are far too many others to even try to list. And while trying to take the path of fairness and equality is something folks can intelecualize, in practice people are kinda selfish and shitty!
- ncmncm 5y ago
  She was not forced out, but many others have been. Not all driven out are women, or minorities, or gay, trans, poor, shy, short, loud, ill, or what-have-you. But that is the way to bet. The key developer of the Moderna vaccine was shat on her whole career. She had to leave academia to get (commercial) funding for the final work. Treated better, she might have got it done a decade or more earlier, saving possibly millions of lives. There is a treasure trove of work by women, abused minorities, and the rest, abandoned when they were driven out of science for crappy reasons, waiting to be rediscovered. And there is a massive shitpile, preserved by overprivileged nobodies, one-hit wonders, and tenured posers, waiting to be binned. That work is easier to preserve in less quantitative fields like psychology and history, but there is plenty to go around. Drive them out.
  - babesh 5y ago
    I haven’t read anywhere that said that the Moderna developer was shat on because of her gender. What I read was that the scientific establishment didn’t believe that there could be a viable delivery mechanism. So please don’t use that as evidence to push your point. You are arguing with emotion here instead of facts. There have definitely been minorities, women, etc... that were driven out of science and some work that should have been more recognized. From what I can tell, the people doing the driving out are actually the nobodies. The nobodies are taking the mantle of moral outrage and weaponizing it to drive out people who disagree with them.
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      Apparently you have not read any histories of her work. And, obviously it is and always was the nobodies and has-beens driving out people who would shake things up. It has always been easiest to blight the careers of outsiders. The people working are busy, you know, working. The majority of them are obviously not minorities. There is plenty of competition for scarce placements, grants, and facilities, and everyone needs all available boosts to get enough of all of those just to work. We need to ensure all of these available boosts are for quality work.
      - babesh 5y ago
        You show your bias. You don't know what I have read. I have read histories of her work. Several in fact. Get your facts straight instead of trying to hide them in the name of your narrative. Here is the person you are speaking of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katalin_Karikó https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katalin_Karikó I knew that she was demoted for not showing progress. How would I know that? The key tech was encapsulating the RNA in a lipid shell. How would I know that? I also know that her daughter was an Olympian rower. How would I know that? This work was touted in the press for months because it was the basis for the two RNA based vaccines for COVID-19 used in the US. How would I know that? I have been following/commenting on COVID-19 on Hacker News since early last year. Go look at my comments. You just discredit yourself.

by ximeng 5y ago

randombits0 5y ago

“Why do we bemoan the exit of sexual harassers, and those who otherwise harm their colleagues, from the scientific community? Instead, we should mourn the loss of all the promising scientists that they forced out, whose contributions will never be known.” Yet she was not forced out. Was that her choice? Should we also mourn the lost contributions of others forced out for weakness? Are we to support those forced out due to “unfair” weaknesses while agreeing to dismiss those forced out by “fair” weaknesses? The sexual/gender dynamic of social interaction is only one aspect that may be abused. There are far too many others to even try to list. And while trying to take the path of fairness and equality is something folks can intelecualize, in practice people are kinda selfish and shitty!

ncmncm 5y ago
She was not forced out, but many others have been. Not all driven out are women, or minorities, or gay, trans, poor, shy, short, loud, ill, or what-have-you. But that is the way to bet. The key developer of the Moderna vaccine was shat on her whole career. She had to leave academia to get (commercial) funding for the final work. Treated better, she might have got it done a decade or more earlier, saving possibly millions of lives. There is a treasure trove of work by women, abused minorities, and the rest, abandoned when they were driven out of science for crappy reasons, waiting to be rediscovered. And there is a massive shitpile, preserved by overprivileged nobodies, one-hit wonders, and tenured posers, waiting to be binned. That work is easier to preserve in less quantitative fields like psychology and history, but there is plenty to go around. Drive them out.
- babesh 5y ago
  I haven’t read anywhere that said that the Moderna developer was shat on because of her gender. What I read was that the scientific establishment didn’t believe that there could be a viable delivery mechanism. So please don’t use that as evidence to push your point. You are arguing with emotion here instead of facts. There have definitely been minorities, women, etc... that were driven out of science and some work that should have been more recognized. From what I can tell, the people doing the driving out are actually the nobodies. The nobodies are taking the mantle of moral outrage and weaponizing it to drive out people who disagree with them.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    Apparently you have not read any histories of her work. And, obviously it is and always was the nobodies and has-beens driving out people who would shake things up. It has always been easiest to blight the careers of outsiders. The people working are busy, you know, working. The majority of them are obviously not minorities. There is plenty of competition for scarce placements, grants, and facilities, and everyone needs all available boosts to get enough of all of those just to work. We need to ensure all of these available boosts are for quality work.
    - babesh 5y ago
      You show your bias. You don't know what I have read. I have read histories of her work. Several in fact. Get your facts straight instead of trying to hide them in the name of your narrative. Here is the person you are speaking of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katalin_Karikó https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katalin_Karikó I knew that she was demoted for not showing progress. How would I know that? The key tech was encapsulating the RNA in a lipid shell. How would I know that? I also know that her daughter was an Olympian rower. How would I know that? This work was touted in the press for months because it was the basis for the two RNA based vaccines for COVID-19 used in the US. How would I know that? I have been following/commenting on COVID-19 on Hacker News since early last year. Go look at my comments. You just discredit yourself.