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> Musk didn't raise money on the basis of these lies. He raised money initially with no claims about FSD. April 2019 - Tesla Autonomy Investor Day - Musk makes

by sethd 5y ago

> Musk didn't raise money on the basis of these lies. He raised money initially with no claims about FSD. April 2019 - Tesla Autonomy Investor Day - Musk makes various claims of your Tesla turning into a profit center via "robotaxis", million robotaxis on road in 2020. "In two years Tesla will be making cars with no steering wheels or pedals." https://ir.teslamotors.com/events/event-details/tesla-autonomy-investor-day https://ir.teslamotors.com/events/event-details/tesla-autono... May 2019 - Tesla Looks to Raise as Much as $2.3 Billion Through a Bond and Stock Sale https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-looks-to-raise-as-much-as-2-3-billion-in-debt-and-equity-11556800692 https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-looks-to-raise-as-much-as... "Tesla Autonomy Investor Day"...

hogFeast 5y ago
Okay, and what was the market cap then? The valuation wasn't contingent on FSD happening (I do agree with your general point, my understanding of fraud is that making those claims knowing they were impossible is fraud, so the question is whether he knew...it also isn't just a moral thing for human to do regardless of legality, he shouldn't have said it if he didn't know). I mean, no-one took those claims seriously. But when the market cap is $1tn then it is somewhat obvious that this isn't a "car business" anymore...it wasn't possible to justify that even if they made all the cars in the world.
- sethd 5y ago
  The market cap at the time was under $50 billion and Tesla was bleeding money, a structured bankruptcy seemed like a real possibility at the time (before the FSD fraud raise).
  - hogFeast 5y ago
    Yep, I agree (I was short the stock). But the question is whether lying about FSD was a big part of the raise? I don't think it was, back then everyone assumed he was full of shit because he talked literal nonsense almost constantly (the number of topics on which he is a self-appointed expert is quite extraordinary). When the market cap is $1tn, that nonsense was behind the price.

by sethd 5y ago

hogFeast 5y ago

Okay, and what was the market cap then? The valuation wasn't contingent on FSD happening (I do agree with your general point, my understanding of fraud is that making those claims knowing they were impossible is fraud, so the question is whether he knew...it also isn't just a moral thing for human to do regardless of legality, he shouldn't have said it if he didn't know). I mean, no-one took those claims seriously. But when the market cap is $1tn then it is somewhat obvious that this isn't a "car business" anymore...it wasn't possible to justify that even if they made all the cars in the world.

sethd 5y ago
The market cap at the time was under $50 billion and Tesla was bleeding money, a structured bankruptcy seemed like a real possibility at the time (before the FSD fraud raise).
- hogFeast 5y ago
  Yep, I agree (I was short the stock). But the question is whether lying about FSD was a big part of the raise? I don't think it was, back then everyone assumed he was full of shit because he talked literal nonsense almost constantly (the number of topics on which he is a self-appointed expert is quite extraordinary). When the market cap is $1tn, that nonsense was behind the price.