3 ms·

The primary motivation was securities fraud, they raised billions in funding based on this lie.

by sethd 5y ago

macspoofing 5y ago
That's way too strong of a statement. Musk is personally very popular and that spills over to Tesla and SpaceX. You can't make the claim that had it not been for Musk's bullshit self-driving claims that Tesla wouldn't have been able to raise funds. In fact, I think those claims made little to no difference.
- the-dude 5y ago
  Everything Everywhere Is Securities Fraud https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-26/everything-everywhere-is-securities-fraud https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-26/everyt...
- justapassenger 5y ago
  Tesla’s profit narrative changed from making cars to self driving. They even hosted investors day, where they hyped it. Raises where largely made on a story of autonomy being just around the corner. And general hype around Musk being Ironman, that he carefully works on maintaining, exactly through events like this.
- hobs 5y ago
  How about pick one of his other bullshit things he said and apply that to his general level of bullshit that he's always ready to say. He's popular because people buy into his bullshit 100% instead of having a measured approach to a guy whose reeeeally into self promotion.
- hogFeast 5y ago
  Being very popular does not mean that you are not subject to laws. It is unquestionable at this point that a very large number of rules have been broken. Just on the securities fraud: Musk has committed securities fraud multiple times and has been let off the hook (if anyone else did the 420 thing, they would have been barred for life for being a public company CEO...it was appalling). The same rules apply to everyone, whether you are a self-aggrandizing billionaire or not. Multiple consumer law violations. Multiple instances of securities fraud. None of this is legal. Also, it is possible to raise money without lying. Musk didn't raise money on the basis of these lies. He raised money initially with no claims about FSD. And the money he has subsequently got came from China.
  - sethd 5y ago
    > Musk didn't raise money on the basis of these lies. He raised money initially with no claims about FSD. April 2019 - Tesla Autonomy Investor Day - Musk makes various claims of your Tesla turning into a profit center via "robotaxis", million robotaxis on road in 2020. "In two years Tesla will be making cars with no steering wheels or pedals." https://ir.teslamotors.com/events/event-details/tesla-autonomy-investor-day https://ir.teslamotors.com/events/event-details/tesla-autono... May 2019 - Tesla Looks to Raise as Much as $2.3 Billion Through a Bond and Stock Sale https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-looks-to-raise-as-much-as-2-3-billion-in-debt-and-equity-11556800692 https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-looks-to-raise-as-much-as... "Tesla Autonomy Investor Day"...
    - hogFeast 5y ago
      Okay, and what was the market cap then? The valuation wasn't contingent on FSD happening (I do agree with your general point, my understanding of fraud is that making those claims knowing they were impossible is fraud, so the question is whether he knew...it also isn't just a moral thing for human to do regardless of legality, he shouldn't have said it if he didn't know). I mean, no-one took those claims seriously. But when the market cap is $1tn then it is somewhat obvious that this isn't a "car business" anymore...it wasn't possible to justify that even if they made all the cars in the world.
      - sethd 5y ago
        The market cap at the time was under $50 billion and Tesla was bleeding money, a structured bankruptcy seemed like a real possibility at the time (before the FSD fraud raise).
        hogFeast 5y ago
        Yep, I agree (I was short the stock). But the question is whether lying about FSD was a big part of the raise? I don't think it was, back then everyone assumed he was full of shit because he talked literal nonsense almost constantly (the number of topics on which he is a self-appointed expert is quite extraordinary). When the market cap is $1tn, that nonsense was behind the price.

The primary motivation was securities fraud, they raised billions in funding based on this lie.

by sethd 5y ago

The primary motivation was securities fraud, they raised billions in funding based on this lie.

That's way too strong of a statement. Musk is personally very popular and that spills over to Tesla and SpaceX. You can't make the claim that had it not been for Musk's bullshit self-driving claims that Tesla wouldn't have been able to raise funds. In fact, I think those claims made little to no difference.

the-dude 5y ago
Everything Everywhere Is Securities Fraud https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-26/everything-everywhere-is-securities-fraud https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-26/everyt...
justapassenger 5y ago
Tesla’s profit narrative changed from making cars to self driving. They even hosted investors day, where they hyped it. Raises where largely made on a story of autonomy being just around the corner. And general hype around Musk being Ironman, that he carefully works on maintaining, exactly through events like this.
hobs 5y ago
How about pick one of his other bullshit things he said and apply that to his general level of bullshit that he's always ready to say. He's popular because people buy into his bullshit 100% instead of having a measured approach to a guy whose reeeeally into self promotion.
hogFeast 5y ago
Being very popular does not mean that you are not subject to laws. It is unquestionable at this point that a very large number of rules have been broken. Just on the securities fraud: Musk has committed securities fraud multiple times and has been let off the hook (if anyone else did the 420 thing, they would have been barred for life for being a public company CEO...it was appalling). The same rules apply to everyone, whether you are a self-aggrandizing billionaire or not. Multiple consumer law violations. Multiple instances of securities fraud. None of this is legal. Also, it is possible to raise money without lying. Musk didn't raise money on the basis of these lies. He raised money initially with no claims about FSD. And the money he has subsequently got came from China.
- sethd 5y ago
  > Musk didn't raise money on the basis of these lies. He raised money initially with no claims about FSD. April 2019 - Tesla Autonomy Investor Day - Musk makes various claims of your Tesla turning into a profit center via "robotaxis", million robotaxis on road in 2020. "In two years Tesla will be making cars with no steering wheels or pedals." https://ir.teslamotors.com/events/event-details/tesla-autonomy-investor-day https://ir.teslamotors.com/events/event-details/tesla-autono... May 2019 - Tesla Looks to Raise as Much as $2.3 Billion Through a Bond and Stock Sale https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-looks-to-raise-as-much-as-2-3-billion-in-debt-and-equity-11556800692 https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-looks-to-raise-as-much-as... "Tesla Autonomy Investor Day"...
  - hogFeast 5y ago
    Okay, and what was the market cap then? The valuation wasn't contingent on FSD happening (I do agree with your general point, my understanding of fraud is that making those claims knowing they were impossible is fraud, so the question is whether he knew...it also isn't just a moral thing for human to do regardless of legality, he shouldn't have said it if he didn't know). I mean, no-one took those claims seriously. But when the market cap is $1tn then it is somewhat obvious that this isn't a "car business" anymore...it wasn't possible to justify that even if they made all the cars in the world.
    - sethd 5y ago
      The market cap at the time was under $50 billion and Tesla was bleeding money, a structured bankruptcy seemed like a real possibility at the time (before the FSD fraud raise).
      - hogFeast 5y ago
        Yep, I agree (I was short the stock). But the question is whether lying about FSD was a big part of the raise? I don't think it was, back then everyone assumed he was full of shit because he talked literal nonsense almost constantly (the number of topics on which he is a self-appointed expert is quite extraordinary). When the market cap is $1tn, that nonsense was behind the price.