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These long distance routes should be left intact because they are an important anchor for eventually expanding to high speed rail. China kept their unprofitabl

These long distance routes should be left intact because they are an important anchor for eventually expanding to high speed rail. China kept their unprofitable rural slow passenger routes into the distant corners of their country, and now they are converting them to high speed routes. The Beijing-Guangzhou high-speed line is 2,298km long, and used to be 22 hours but now runs in 8[1] Being able to go from Penn Station in Manhattan to Union Station in Chicago in 8 hours in a comfortable train would be a serious alternative to air travel, and once the track is upgraded, it would probably be cheaper than existing service. And this is completely doable with decades old technology. Other countries have done comparable things with less. I don't think we should abandon "legacy" routes just because they are not profitable right now. And even if they are never profitable that alone is not a good enough reason to abandon infrastructure. [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-20842836 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-20842836

T-hawk 5y ago
Note that New York to Chicago by Amtrak is so slow largely because there's no direct route. You either take the Great Lakes route going through Albany, Buffalo, and Cleveland, or the northeast corridor route to Washington DC and then another line to Chicago. The more direct Keystone line through Pennsylvania only goes as far as Harrisburg.
- apostacy 5y ago
  I think the absolute time and distance is what matters, and it would still substantially benefit from being high speed, even if it is meandering through upstate NY and along the great lakes. Eventually, a more direct NY - Chicago high speed rail route could be built that is even faster.
  - OldHand2018 5y ago
    You’ll notice that there is a Detroit to Toronto line on that map. It’s not an accident. Chicago to Detroit has been running at 110mph for 80+% of the distance for almost 10 years now. The rail tunnel under the Detroit River already exists. You just need a fast NYC to Buffalo with a little extension on to Hamilton, ON and you’ve got a very direct NYC to Chicago route.
    - bbanyc 5y ago
      They'd need to do something about the hour-long stop at the border for CBP and its Canadian equivalent to go through the train checking everyone's passports. Decades ago I ran into it on the now-defunct Chicago-Toronto line and I'm pretty sure it's why they don't run those trains anymore. The New York-Toronto and New York-Montreal trains still do it. Seattle-Vancouver avoids it by not making any stops between Vancouver and the border, so the immigration checks take place at the station. This might be feasible for Montreal, probably not for Toronto, and a train that runs from Buffalo to Detroit without stopping in Canada at all seems implausible.
      - mjmahone17 5y ago
        Could probably set it up to do checks on departure. End up in the wrong country without your passport? Just take the next train back to the last destination in the other country. Would likely need a special treaty in place so Americans traveling from Chicago to NY can travel through without a passport (just ID). Alternatively if we’re talking diplomatic solutions, the US and Canada could move towards a Schengen-style free transit zone without cross country border checks.
        mattm 5y ago
        > Could probably set it up to do checks on departure There's a seaplane from Victoria-Seattle. It's been a few years since I took it but I believe this is what happened. There's a custom agent at each side. I can't remember if there were any checks before departure though. I would imagine they would do some preliminary check because they don't want to be on the hook for taking you back. Shortest custom wait ever BTW since the plane only holds 10-15 people. > US and Canada could move towards a Schengen-style free transit zone without cross country border checks This would be a dream. I'm curious why I've never really heard any proposal about this. As a Canadian (currently living in the US), I think that Canada would be more opposed to this. We always seem to have a fear of the US amalgamating us. I think it'd be politically tricky on both sides though. Even though it was proven to be false, there's still this myth that the 9/11 hijackers entered the US through Canada.
- ghaff 5y ago
  And the other part of the problem is that you're going through a continental divide. Prior to air travel, I assume NY to Chicago was a major route so there may be good reasons for why the routing is as it is.
- calvinmorrison 5y ago
  100 years ago there were many routes! I hate that the rails have failed, taking a train between Philly, Reading, Allentown, and Scranton makes so much sense!
  - ghaff 5y ago
    Yes, but the 20th Century Limited flagship of the New York Central Railroad [1] actually did follow the current Lake Shore Limited route. I suspect that there are geographic factors that limit a more direct route. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Century_Limited https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Century_Limited

T-hawk 5y ago

Note that New York to Chicago by Amtrak is so slow largely because there's no direct route. You either take the Great Lakes route going through Albany, Buffalo, and Cleveland, or the northeast corridor route to Washington DC and then another line to Chicago. The more direct Keystone line through Pennsylvania only goes as far as Harrisburg.

apostacy 5y ago
I think the absolute time and distance is what matters, and it would still substantially benefit from being high speed, even if it is meandering through upstate NY and along the great lakes. Eventually, a more direct NY - Chicago high speed rail route could be built that is even faster.
- OldHand2018 5y ago
  You’ll notice that there is a Detroit to Toronto line on that map. It’s not an accident. Chicago to Detroit has been running at 110mph for 80+% of the distance for almost 10 years now. The rail tunnel under the Detroit River already exists. You just need a fast NYC to Buffalo with a little extension on to Hamilton, ON and you’ve got a very direct NYC to Chicago route.
  - bbanyc 5y ago
    They'd need to do something about the hour-long stop at the border for CBP and its Canadian equivalent to go through the train checking everyone's passports. Decades ago I ran into it on the now-defunct Chicago-Toronto line and I'm pretty sure it's why they don't run those trains anymore. The New York-Toronto and New York-Montreal trains still do it. Seattle-Vancouver avoids it by not making any stops between Vancouver and the border, so the immigration checks take place at the station. This might be feasible for Montreal, probably not for Toronto, and a train that runs from Buffalo to Detroit without stopping in Canada at all seems implausible.
    - mjmahone17 5y ago
      Could probably set it up to do checks on departure. End up in the wrong country without your passport? Just take the next train back to the last destination in the other country. Would likely need a special treaty in place so Americans traveling from Chicago to NY can travel through without a passport (just ID). Alternatively if we’re talking diplomatic solutions, the US and Canada could move towards a Schengen-style free transit zone without cross country border checks.
      - mattm 5y ago
        > Could probably set it up to do checks on departure There's a seaplane from Victoria-Seattle. It's been a few years since I took it but I believe this is what happened. There's a custom agent at each side. I can't remember if there were any checks before departure though. I would imagine they would do some preliminary check because they don't want to be on the hook for taking you back. Shortest custom wait ever BTW since the plane only holds 10-15 people. > US and Canada could move towards a Schengen-style free transit zone without cross country border checks This would be a dream. I'm curious why I've never really heard any proposal about this. As a Canadian (currently living in the US), I think that Canada would be more opposed to this. We always seem to have a fear of the US amalgamating us. I think it'd be politically tricky on both sides though. Even though it was proven to be false, there's still this myth that the 9/11 hijackers entered the US through Canada.
ghaff 5y ago
And the other part of the problem is that you're going through a continental divide. Prior to air travel, I assume NY to Chicago was a major route so there may be good reasons for why the routing is as it is.
calvinmorrison 5y ago
100 years ago there were many routes! I hate that the rails have failed, taking a train between Philly, Reading, Allentown, and Scranton makes so much sense!
- ghaff 5y ago
  Yes, but the 20th Century Limited flagship of the New York Central Railroad [1] actually did follow the current Lake Shore Limited route. I suspect that there are geographic factors that limit a more direct route. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Century_Limited https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Century_Limited