5 ms·

Level 2 is still pretty great. Idk why he had to oversell it aside from his massive ego.

by tootie 6y ago

sethd 6y ago
The primary motivation was securities fraud, they raised billions in funding based on this lie.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  That's way too strong of a statement. Musk is personally very popular and that spills over to Tesla and SpaceX. You can't make the claim that had it not been for Musk's bullshit self-driving claims that Tesla wouldn't have been able to raise funds. In fact, I think those claims made little to no difference.
  - the-dude 6y ago
    Everything Everywhere Is Securities Fraud https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-26/everything-everywhere-is-securities-fraud https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-26/everyt...
  - justapassenger 6y ago
    Tesla’s profit narrative changed from making cars to self driving. They even hosted investors day, where they hyped it. Raises where largely made on a story of autonomy being just around the corner. And general hype around Musk being Ironman, that he carefully works on maintaining, exactly through events like this.
  - hobs 6y ago
    How about pick one of his other bullshit things he said and apply that to his general level of bullshit that he's always ready to say. He's popular because people buy into his bullshit 100% instead of having a measured approach to a guy whose reeeeally into self promotion.
  - hogFeast 6y ago
    Being very popular does not mean that you are not subject to laws. It is unquestionable at this point that a very large number of rules have been broken. Just on the securities fraud: Musk has committed securities fraud multiple times and has been let off the hook (if anyone else did the 420 thing, they would have been barred for life for being a public company CEO...it was appalling). The same rules apply to everyone, whether you are a self-aggrandizing billionaire or not. Multiple consumer law violations. Multiple instances of securities fraud. None of this is legal. Also, it is possible to raise money without lying. Musk didn't raise money on the basis of these lies. He raised money initially with no claims about FSD. And the money he has subsequently got came from China.
    - sethd 6y ago
      > Musk didn't raise money on the basis of these lies. He raised money initially with no claims about FSD. April 2019 - Tesla Autonomy Investor Day - Musk makes various claims of your Tesla turning into a profit center via "robotaxis", million robotaxis on road in 2020. "In two years Tesla will be making cars with no steering wheels or pedals." https://ir.teslamotors.com/events/event-details/tesla-autonomy-investor-day https://ir.teslamotors.com/events/event-details/tesla-autono... May 2019 - Tesla Looks to Raise as Much as $2.3 Billion Through a Bond and Stock Sale https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-looks-to-raise-as-much-as-2-3-billion-in-debt-and-equity-11556800692 https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-looks-to-raise-as-much-as... "Tesla Autonomy Investor Day"...
      - hogFeast 6y ago
        Okay, and what was the market cap then? The valuation wasn't contingent on FSD happening (I do agree with your general point, my understanding of fraud is that making those claims knowing they were impossible is fraud, so the question is whether he knew...it also isn't just a moral thing for human to do regardless of legality, he shouldn't have said it if he didn't know). I mean, no-one took those claims seriously. But when the market cap is $1tn then it is somewhat obvious that this isn't a "car business" anymore...it wasn't possible to justify that even if they made all the cars in the world.
jml7c5 6y ago
I think he wasn't aware that he was overselling it. He suffers(?) unrealistic optimism. This is a double-edged sword: the drive and self-belief can spur progress where prior consensus was that something truly feasible was unrealistic, but it can also be an almost Theranos-esque "we're almost here, it's really happening!" delusion.
- wpietri 6y ago
  "Unrealistic optimism" is a feeling one has. We all get it sometimes, including everybody else leading a major company. Making repeated public statements like this is at best a mix of enormous arrogance and negligence. At worst it's a billion-dollar fraud.
  - jml7c5 6y ago
    To be clear, I mean "unrealistic optimism" in a way that is pathological, such as seen in bipolar hypomania. Where it is so severe that the person's confidence and grandiosity is beginning to detach them from reality.
- justapassenger 6y ago
  He’s been in tech business for decades, and has long history of both failed and successful projects - he knows how R&D projects work, and how rarely they deliver, and how never they’re there on time. He has board of directors to control him. He’s lying on purpose, because he knows he immune from any consequences. And he’s right - those lies propelled him to be one of the richest people in the world.
wefarrell 6y ago
They sold FSD "capable" as an add on for an extra $10k. It was a quick way to make money with no definitive delivery date.

Level 2 is still pretty great. Idk why he had to oversell it aside from his massive ego.

by tootie 6y ago

Level 2 is still pretty great. Idk why he had to oversell it aside from his massive ego.

sethd 6y ago

The primary motivation was securities fraud, they raised billions in funding based on this lie.

macspoofing 6y ago
That's way too strong of a statement. Musk is personally very popular and that spills over to Tesla and SpaceX. You can't make the claim that had it not been for Musk's bullshit self-driving claims that Tesla wouldn't have been able to raise funds. In fact, I think those claims made little to no difference.
- the-dude 6y ago
  Everything Everywhere Is Securities Fraud https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-26/everything-everywhere-is-securities-fraud https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-26/everyt...
- justapassenger 6y ago
  Tesla’s profit narrative changed from making cars to self driving. They even hosted investors day, where they hyped it. Raises where largely made on a story of autonomy being just around the corner. And general hype around Musk being Ironman, that he carefully works on maintaining, exactly through events like this.
- hobs 6y ago
  How about pick one of his other bullshit things he said and apply that to his general level of bullshit that he's always ready to say. He's popular because people buy into his bullshit 100% instead of having a measured approach to a guy whose reeeeally into self promotion.
- hogFeast 6y ago
  Being very popular does not mean that you are not subject to laws. It is unquestionable at this point that a very large number of rules have been broken. Just on the securities fraud: Musk has committed securities fraud multiple times and has been let off the hook (if anyone else did the 420 thing, they would have been barred for life for being a public company CEO...it was appalling). The same rules apply to everyone, whether you are a self-aggrandizing billionaire or not. Multiple consumer law violations. Multiple instances of securities fraud. None of this is legal. Also, it is possible to raise money without lying. Musk didn't raise money on the basis of these lies. He raised money initially with no claims about FSD. And the money he has subsequently got came from China.
  - sethd 6y ago
    > Musk didn't raise money on the basis of these lies. He raised money initially with no claims about FSD. April 2019 - Tesla Autonomy Investor Day - Musk makes various claims of your Tesla turning into a profit center via "robotaxis", million robotaxis on road in 2020. "In two years Tesla will be making cars with no steering wheels or pedals." https://ir.teslamotors.com/events/event-details/tesla-autonomy-investor-day https://ir.teslamotors.com/events/event-details/tesla-autono... May 2019 - Tesla Looks to Raise as Much as $2.3 Billion Through a Bond and Stock Sale https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-looks-to-raise-as-much-as-2-3-billion-in-debt-and-equity-11556800692 https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-looks-to-raise-as-much-as... "Tesla Autonomy Investor Day"...
    - hogFeast 6y ago
      Okay, and what was the market cap then? The valuation wasn't contingent on FSD happening (I do agree with your general point, my understanding of fraud is that making those claims knowing they were impossible is fraud, so the question is whether he knew...it also isn't just a moral thing for human to do regardless of legality, he shouldn't have said it if he didn't know). I mean, no-one took those claims seriously. But when the market cap is $1tn then it is somewhat obvious that this isn't a "car business" anymore...it wasn't possible to justify that even if they made all the cars in the world.

jml7c5 6y ago

I think he wasn't aware that he was overselling it. He suffers(?) unrealistic optimism. This is a double-edged sword: the drive and self-belief can spur progress where prior consensus was that something truly feasible was unrealistic, but it can also be an almost Theranos-esque "we're almost here, it's really happening!" delusion.

wpietri 6y ago
"Unrealistic optimism" is a feeling one has. We all get it sometimes, including everybody else leading a major company. Making repeated public statements like this is at best a mix of enormous arrogance and negligence. At worst it's a billion-dollar fraud.
- jml7c5 6y ago
  To be clear, I mean "unrealistic optimism" in a way that is pathological, such as seen in bipolar hypomania. Where it is so severe that the person's confidence and grandiosity is beginning to detach them from reality.
justapassenger 6y ago
He’s been in tech business for decades, and has long history of both failed and successful projects - he knows how R&D projects work, and how rarely they deliver, and how never they’re there on time. He has board of directors to control him. He’s lying on purpose, because he knows he immune from any consequences. And he’s right - those lies propelled him to be one of the richest people in the world.

wefarrell 6y ago

They sold FSD "capable" as an add on for an extra $10k. It was a quick way to make money with no definitive delivery date.