8 ms·

If it would be any other car manufacturer they would be facing multi-million lawsuits. Instead TSLA is breaking records.

ocdtrekkie 5y ago
Yeah, I don't understand why Tesla hasn't simply been ordered to stop calling these features Autopilot or FSD, as both are misleading, and explicitly suggest more capability than they have, causing numerous deaths and accidents. Oh, and anyone who paid extra for these features should be given a refund, as those features were falsely advertised.
- yreg 5y ago
  How is autopilot misleading? Autopilot describes the feature well - assisting driver with the operation of the vehicle, some of the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot
  - isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
    It's not how the public perceives it.
    - fastball 5y ago
      Why not? What led the public astray?
      - NateEag 5y ago
        Does that matter? If that is the general perception, how it got that way doesn't change what people think the word means, or what they'll hear when Tesla names a feature Autopilot.
        fastball 5y ago
        I'm questioning this oft-cited version of reality. I don't know a single person that thinks autopilot means pilots don't need to be in airplanes, and consequently that autopilot means you don't need drivers in the driver's seat. Of course people recognize that they can get around Tesla's precautions and have nobody in the driver's seat, just like pilots could all leave the cockpit while the 737 is in flight and go get wasted at the minibar or whatever. But they don't and neither should drivers, and Tesla isn't suggesting that driver's should – in fact they've put technological precautions in place that airplanes with autopilot don't even use to ensure someone is at the stick. You can also run over pedestrians with [insert car here], but nobody is suggesting you do it. People doing it anyway is not [insert car manufacturer here]'s fault.
        NateEag 5y ago
        I think you're arguing against a strawman here. I'm not saying "people think Tesla wants you to defeat their safety mechanisms and sit in the back seat." I'm saying "The name implies more autonomy to the average person than the system actually has." I could be wrong - I certainly don't have statistics to back up my perception of laypeople's usage of the word "autopilot." It still seems to me like for the average buyer the name is misleading, though.
        fastball 5y ago
        It may be misleading, but my argument is that it is not misleading to the point that they deprive the people doing these things of agency, which to me is what matters. Everyone who is disregarding the warnings, weighting their steering wheel, weighting the driver's seat, etc. knows that what they are doing is not how the vehicle is intended to be operated at this time. They are knowingly pushing the limits. If tomorrow Boeing came out and said "hey, Autopilot on the 787 Dreamliner is sophisticated to the point where the plane can totally fly itself, from takeoff to landing", would it be reasonable for all 787 Dreamliner pilots to just leave the cockpit and get wasted with the flight attendants in the back? I don't think so. So I don't understand why people are holding Tesla to a ridiculous standard that they're not holding any other company to. Teslas can drive themselves from A to B in many situations at this point. It's not false advertising to say that. What would not be OK is if Tesla was saying if you buy this car you don't need to be in the driver's seat right now (not in the future, which is how they're currently selling it).
  - sdflhasjd 5y ago
    I don't think the average person really understands what autopilot (as in aviation/marine) actually is and what it can and can't do.
    - fastball 5y ago
      Well that is literally where the term comes from and it hasn't really been used in any other context until Tesla's usage, so not really sure where the average person's confusion is coming from. My point is: I don't think this is true. But if you have a survey which indicates that a broad swath of the population believes Teslas with Autopilot don't need any human intervention or shouldn't have someone in the driver's seat I'd love to see it. Literally dozens of people in this thread are saying "this is what the average person believes" when none of them believe it themselves. Where are ya'll getting this insight into the average person's thought processes?
    - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
      I mean, it's worth noting that in most aviation and marine scenarios, collision is relatively unlikely. Leaving a plane on autopilot to go in a straight line for a while is unlikely to be dangerous, but it would be very dangerous in a car.
  - NateEag 5y ago
    Because even if that's what "autopilot" technically means, it's not how it's used idiomatically by laypeople. Most people hear "autopilot" and think "set it and forget it".
- sidibe 5y ago
  It's not just the names that are the problem, it's also the fact that they are trying to do a little more than other driver assist systems despite being very unreliable. IMO there are some features that shouldn't exist until full L4 so that people aren't tempted to let the car do the driving when it can't
  - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
    I am reasonably okay with a driver assist system attempting to do more. But I'd agree they need to be better about both knowing what they can't do well yet, and that they need to be much better about detecting driver presence and attention, so that the car can't be used in manners they don't intend.
- gostsamo 5y ago
  It was ordered to stop in Germany.
- macspoofing 5y ago
  >I don't understand why Tesla hasn't simply been ordered to stop calling these features Autopilot or FSD They walked back, or qualified a lot of the initial claims and added mitigations to prevent their 'self-driving' systems from being used as such. >Oh, and anyone who paid extra for these features should be given a refund, as those features were falsely advertised. There may be some validity to this. Musk/Tesla certainly made explicit claims that existing cars have the hardware to achieve full autonomous driving via a future software patch.
  - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
    > They walked back, or qualified a lot of the initial claims The product names are fraudulent, there's no walking back when they're still called Autopilot (a term which in all other uses essentially does not require operator attention) and Full Self-Driving (which is definitely not what the feature is). It's fraud, plain and simple. Until the features are renamed, Tesla continues to commit fraud.
    - mavhc 5y ago
      An autopilot is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft, marine craft or spacecraft without requiring constant manual control by a human operator. Autopilots do not replace human operators. Instead, the autopilot assists the operator's control of the vehicle, allowing the operator to focus on broader aspects of operations (for example, monitoring the trajectory, weather and on-board systems) Autopilots don't stop crashes, or change lanes. So Tesla's Navigate on Autopilot already does more than a standard Autopilot
      - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
        The issue with this comparison is that in scenarios pilots or ship captains use autopilot, collision is extremely improbable compared to that of a car.
        yreg 5y ago
mhh__ 5y ago
What records?

ocdtrekkie 5y ago

Yeah, I don't understand why Tesla hasn't simply been ordered to stop calling these features Autopilot or FSD, as both are misleading, and explicitly suggest more capability than they have, causing numerous deaths and accidents. Oh, and anyone who paid extra for these features should be given a refund, as those features were falsely advertised.

yreg 5y ago
How is autopilot misleading? Autopilot describes the feature well - assisting driver with the operation of the vehicle, some of the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
  It's not how the public perceives it.
  - fastball 5y ago
    Why not? What led the public astray?
    - NateEag 5y ago
      Does that matter? If that is the general perception, how it got that way doesn't change what people think the word means, or what they'll hear when Tesla names a feature Autopilot.
      - fastball 5y ago
        I'm questioning this oft-cited version of reality. I don't know a single person that thinks autopilot means pilots don't need to be in airplanes, and consequently that autopilot means you don't need drivers in the driver's seat. Of course people recognize that they can get around Tesla's precautions and have nobody in the driver's seat, just like pilots could all leave the cockpit while the 737 is in flight and go get wasted at the minibar or whatever. But they don't and neither should drivers, and Tesla isn't suggesting that driver's should – in fact they've put technological precautions in place that airplanes with autopilot don't even use to ensure someone is at the stick. You can also run over pedestrians with [insert car here], but nobody is suggesting you do it. People doing it anyway is not [insert car manufacturer here]'s fault.
        NateEag 5y ago
        I think you're arguing against a strawman here. I'm not saying "people think Tesla wants you to defeat their safety mechanisms and sit in the back seat." I'm saying "The name implies more autonomy to the average person than the system actually has." I could be wrong - I certainly don't have statistics to back up my perception of laypeople's usage of the word "autopilot." It still seems to me like for the average buyer the name is misleading, though.
        fastball 5y ago
        It may be misleading, but my argument is that it is not misleading to the point that they deprive the people doing these things of agency, which to me is what matters. Everyone who is disregarding the warnings, weighting their steering wheel, weighting the driver's seat, etc. knows that what they are doing is not how the vehicle is intended to be operated at this time. They are knowingly pushing the limits. If tomorrow Boeing came out and said "hey, Autopilot on the 787 Dreamliner is sophisticated to the point where the plane can totally fly itself, from takeoff to landing", would it be reasonable for all 787 Dreamliner pilots to just leave the cockpit and get wasted with the flight attendants in the back? I don't think so. So I don't understand why people are holding Tesla to a ridiculous standard that they're not holding any other company to. Teslas can drive themselves from A to B in many situations at this point. It's not false advertising to say that. What would not be OK is if Tesla was saying if you buy this car you don't need to be in the driver's seat right now (not in the future, which is how they're currently selling it).
- sdflhasjd 5y ago
  I don't think the average person really understands what autopilot (as in aviation/marine) actually is and what it can and can't do.
  - fastball 5y ago
    Well that is literally where the term comes from and it hasn't really been used in any other context until Tesla's usage, so not really sure where the average person's confusion is coming from. My point is: I don't think this is true. But if you have a survey which indicates that a broad swath of the population believes Teslas with Autopilot don't need any human intervention or shouldn't have someone in the driver's seat I'd love to see it. Literally dozens of people in this thread are saying "this is what the average person believes" when none of them believe it themselves. Where are ya'll getting this insight into the average person's thought processes?
  - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
    I mean, it's worth noting that in most aviation and marine scenarios, collision is relatively unlikely. Leaving a plane on autopilot to go in a straight line for a while is unlikely to be dangerous, but it would be very dangerous in a car.
- NateEag 5y ago
  Because even if that's what "autopilot" technically means, it's not how it's used idiomatically by laypeople. Most people hear "autopilot" and think "set it and forget it".
sidibe 5y ago
It's not just the names that are the problem, it's also the fact that they are trying to do a little more than other driver assist systems despite being very unreliable. IMO there are some features that shouldn't exist until full L4 so that people aren't tempted to let the car do the driving when it can't
- ocdtrekkie 5y ago
  I am reasonably okay with a driver assist system attempting to do more. But I'd agree they need to be better about both knowing what they can't do well yet, and that they need to be much better about detecting driver presence and attention, so that the car can't be used in manners they don't intend.
gostsamo 5y ago
It was ordered to stop in Germany.
macspoofing 5y ago
>I don't understand why Tesla hasn't simply been ordered to stop calling these features Autopilot or FSD They walked back, or qualified a lot of the initial claims and added mitigations to prevent their 'self-driving' systems from being used as such. >Oh, and anyone who paid extra for these features should be given a refund, as those features were falsely advertised. There may be some validity to this. Musk/Tesla certainly made explicit claims that existing cars have the hardware to achieve full autonomous driving via a future software patch.
- ocdtrekkie 5y ago
  > They walked back, or qualified a lot of the initial claims The product names are fraudulent, there's no walking back when they're still called Autopilot (a term which in all other uses essentially does not require operator attention) and Full Self-Driving (which is definitely not what the feature is). It's fraud, plain and simple. Until the features are renamed, Tesla continues to commit fraud.
  - mavhc 5y ago
    An autopilot is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft, marine craft or spacecraft without requiring constant manual control by a human operator. Autopilots do not replace human operators. Instead, the autopilot assists the operator's control of the vehicle, allowing the operator to focus on broader aspects of operations (for example, monitoring the trajectory, weather and on-board systems) Autopilots don't stop crashes, or change lanes. So Tesla's Navigate on Autopilot already does more than a standard Autopilot
    - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
      The issue with this comparison is that in scenarios pilots or ship captains use autopilot, collision is extremely improbable compared to that of a car.
      - yreg 5y ago

mhh__ 5y ago

What records?