4 ms·

Do we know why his account was terminated? I couldn’t find anything on that.

ldiracdelta 6y ago
People don't own the things they buy. They don't have property rights today. Today, a mob or a single unaccountable low-level account reviewer may declare someone an "out law" and anyone may do anything they like to him as is the old germanic tradition.
- dalbasal 6y ago
  Orwell believed euphemisation was the key element of said tradition. Food for thought, perhaps. Not everything needs to be turned up to 11 all the time, explicitly or not. Chill.
- _jal 6y ago
  > a mob or a single unaccountable low-level account reviewer may declare someone an "out law" I take it you prefer that power to be reserved for those with high status?
  - im3w1l 6y ago
    The nice thing with high status people is that there are so few of them. Makes it easier to hold them accountable.
    - _jal 6y ago
      > Makes it easier to hold them accountable Sounds interesting. Let me know when that starts happening.
  - dane-pgp 6y ago
    That's a false dichotomy, but I'll offer this for an answer: "Yes, it should be reserved for those with high status, and high status should be reserved for people who are chosen by and accountable to the people over whom they have power."
    - _jal 6y ago
      See, I strongly disagree. I believe that, whatever my status, I have the right to associate with whomever I please. Which means I can shun whomever I please. I can also talk with whomever I please, including about people I'm avoiding. So you can have a 1st Amendment, or you can have your Designated Excommunicators, but you can't have both.
wayneftw 6y ago
I only found this vague statement: > Price says that Apple terminated his account when the company suspected him of breaching its terms and conditions, but due to the clause in question Apple did not have to confirm a breach occurred or give Price notice or explanation before shutting down his Apple ID. [0] [0] https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-products/mobile-apps/1017309-apple-terminating-id-users-accounts-class-action-lawsuit/ https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-pro...
- hellbannedguy 6y ago
  We need to revise all consumer protection laws. Way more than we did a few years ago. I would start with, Mandatory Arbitration. Let consumers take these companies, including credit card companies, to court. What is the limit for small claims---$25,000? Companies might treat customers different? I wouldn't mind doing away with Terms if Service all together. If a company can't act within our laws without a 10 page TOS, so be it. Or, maybe strict protections for small companies, and nill for large companies. Companies that can afford to investigate claims against them? All my belly aching here won't do a thing though. These companies have bought our representatives. I'm waiting for a day someone has a successful website, like Hacker News, where people could offer suggestions to their representatives directly. I don't think I'll ever see that day because those in charge know these matters are above the intellect of most Americans, and most Americans would rather escape the inequities of real life, especially on line? I just looked up that 2008 Consumer Protection Act. This popped up? https://www.npr.org/2020/03/03/811718978/supreme-court-casts-doubt-on-independence-of-consumer-protection-agency https://www.npr.org/2020/03/03/811718978/supreme-court-casts...
grishka 6y ago
It shouldn't matter. If you're banned from going to a particular physical store for whatever reason, wrongly or not, you still get to keep everything you've ever bought there. If a physical store goes out of business, you also get to keep everything you've ever bought there. Point being, IRL stores don't retain any control over anything you buy.
- meroes 6y ago
  If I buy a semester at a private school, I still have to pay for the entire semester if I'm expelled (sometimes a smaller but still substantial early leave amount). I know neither of our analogies mirror exactly is going on, but that's part of the point. Maybe this is a different class of "ownership". There seems to be many classes already close to what Apple wants. I'm not sure who will win. I hope it's not Apple, but I've already agreed to worse agreements getting through high school and college.
  - grishka 6y ago
    > Maybe this is a different class of "ownership". Except IMO this class of "ownership" should cost substantially less because you get much less value.
  - dane-pgp 6y ago
    > I bought a dorm room, yet I lose access. For assets in the physical world, the provider can have legitimate reasons for not refunding you the lost access that you originally paid for, on the scale of a month or a semester, due to the difficulty of them finding a replacement buyer/renter of that asset for the remaining duration. Something "seasonal" like school enrolment is a perfect example of that. For digital assets, though, the period that you wouldn't expect to be refunded for should be measured in nanoseconds. The other huge difference of course is that people don't buy perpetual access to a dorm room, whereas they believe they do for digital goods. "Forever minus ten nanoseconds" is very similar to "forever", so the refund should be close to 100%.
  - throwaway_kufu 6y ago
    But schools are not advertising to the public that they are “buying” the class and no reasonable consumer who pays tuition believes a 1 time payment of tuition permits them to attend the class indefinitely. On the other hand Apple purposefully advertises movies as “rentals” or “purchases” sure more sophisticated individuals know better (usually those in the tech industry savvy to the willful and deceptive marketing of the tech companies) but the average consumer understands they have purchased the ownership rights of the movie. Continuing with a reasonable standard if you are suspended/expelled you are generally entitled to due process (certainly in public schools), on the other hand if you violate Apple TOS you may not have the same due process, but it is reasonable to assume they will not delete your data And purchases without the opportunity to retrieve the same. Otherwise it’s a license to steal, they could claim the bank accounts you have connected to Apple Pay are forfeited to Apple, they can publish your emails/photos to harass and embarrass you, etc...

People don't own the things they buy. They don't have property rights today. Today, a mob or a single unaccountable low-level account reviewer may declare someone an "out law" and anyone may do anything they like to him as is the old germanic tradition.

dalbasal 6y ago
Orwell believed euphemisation was the key element of said tradition. Food for thought, perhaps. Not everything needs to be turned up to 11 all the time, explicitly or not. Chill.
_jal 6y ago
> a mob or a single unaccountable low-level account reviewer may declare someone an "out law" I take it you prefer that power to be reserved for those with high status?
- im3w1l 6y ago
  The nice thing with high status people is that there are so few of them. Makes it easier to hold them accountable.
  - _jal 6y ago
    > Makes it easier to hold them accountable Sounds interesting. Let me know when that starts happening.
- dane-pgp 6y ago
  That's a false dichotomy, but I'll offer this for an answer: "Yes, it should be reserved for those with high status, and high status should be reserved for people who are chosen by and accountable to the people over whom they have power."
  - _jal 6y ago
    See, I strongly disagree. I believe that, whatever my status, I have the right to associate with whomever I please. Which means I can shun whomever I please. I can also talk with whomever I please, including about people I'm avoiding. So you can have a 1st Amendment, or you can have your Designated Excommunicators, but you can't have both.

wayneftw 6y ago

I only found this vague statement: > Price says that Apple terminated his account when the company suspected him of breaching its terms and conditions, but due to the clause in question Apple did not have to confirm a breach occurred or give Price notice or explanation before shutting down his Apple ID. [0] [0] https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-products/mobile-apps/1017309-apple-terminating-id-users-accounts-class-action-lawsuit/ https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-pro...

hellbannedguy 6y ago
We need to revise all consumer protection laws. Way more than we did a few years ago. I would start with, Mandatory Arbitration. Let consumers take these companies, including credit card companies, to court. What is the limit for small claims---$25,000? Companies might treat customers different? I wouldn't mind doing away with Terms if Service all together. If a company can't act within our laws without a 10 page TOS, so be it. Or, maybe strict protections for small companies, and nill for large companies. Companies that can afford to investigate claims against them? All my belly aching here won't do a thing though. These companies have bought our representatives. I'm waiting for a day someone has a successful website, like Hacker News, where people could offer suggestions to their representatives directly. I don't think I'll ever see that day because those in charge know these matters are above the intellect of most Americans, and most Americans would rather escape the inequities of real life, especially on line? I just looked up that 2008 Consumer Protection Act. This popped up? https://www.npr.org/2020/03/03/811718978/supreme-court-casts-doubt-on-independence-of-consumer-protection-agency https://www.npr.org/2020/03/03/811718978/supreme-court-casts...

grishka 6y ago

It shouldn't matter. If you're banned from going to a particular physical store for whatever reason, wrongly or not, you still get to keep everything you've ever bought there. If a physical store goes out of business, you also get to keep everything you've ever bought there. Point being, IRL stores don't retain any control over anything you buy.

meroes 6y ago
If I buy a semester at a private school, I still have to pay for the entire semester if I'm expelled (sometimes a smaller but still substantial early leave amount). I know neither of our analogies mirror exactly is going on, but that's part of the point. Maybe this is a different class of "ownership". There seems to be many classes already close to what Apple wants. I'm not sure who will win. I hope it's not Apple, but I've already agreed to worse agreements getting through high school and college.
- grishka 6y ago
  > Maybe this is a different class of "ownership". Except IMO this class of "ownership" should cost substantially less because you get much less value.
- dane-pgp 6y ago
  > I bought a dorm room, yet I lose access. For assets in the physical world, the provider can have legitimate reasons for not refunding you the lost access that you originally paid for, on the scale of a month or a semester, due to the difficulty of them finding a replacement buyer/renter of that asset for the remaining duration. Something "seasonal" like school enrolment is a perfect example of that. For digital assets, though, the period that you wouldn't expect to be refunded for should be measured in nanoseconds. The other huge difference of course is that people don't buy perpetual access to a dorm room, whereas they believe they do for digital goods. "Forever minus ten nanoseconds" is very similar to "forever", so the refund should be close to 100%.
- throwaway_kufu 6y ago
  But schools are not advertising to the public that they are “buying” the class and no reasonable consumer who pays tuition believes a 1 time payment of tuition permits them to attend the class indefinitely. On the other hand Apple purposefully advertises movies as “rentals” or “purchases” sure more sophisticated individuals know better (usually those in the tech industry savvy to the willful and deceptive marketing of the tech companies) but the average consumer understands they have purchased the ownership rights of the movie. Continuing with a reasonable standard if you are suspended/expelled you are generally entitled to due process (certainly in public schools), on the other hand if you violate Apple TOS you may not have the same due process, but it is reasonable to assume they will not delete your data And purchases without the opportunity to retrieve the same. Otherwise it’s a license to steal, they could claim the bank accounts you have connected to Apple Pay are forfeited to Apple, they can publish your emails/photos to harass and embarrass you, etc...