4 ms·

What is it about those anecdotes that makes you like him less?

pfortuny 5y ago
I guess you do not go to a topless bar to pay respect to and trean women with equality and respect.
jacobmischka 5y ago
I don't know, I don't disapprove of any of those things morally or anything, but it just got old eventually. As an example, somewhere in the later parts of the book he talks about a period where he starts painting, and very shortly afterward he starts trying to convince women to let him paint them nude, including a student at the institution where he was a professor. Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with nudity, or anything inherently sexual about nudity in art, or even anything morally wrong with the desire to see naked women. But by that point after some of his other stories I started to see him as a somewhat creepy dude and it just came off to me like, oh of course, shortly after taking up this interesting art form you'd go straight to using it as a reason to see naked women, typical Feynman. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with anything he did in any of his stories, all of the parties were consenting in them all, it just left an unpleasant taste in my mouth.
- chris_j 5y ago
  Thanks for expanding. I had forgotten about the painting anecdote. As others have pointed out, a lot men in that era seemed similar in a way. I'd been assuming that going through all the changes that happened in the 60s as a middle aged man must have had a certain effect on them. Seeing expressions of sexuality go from being something very private, something to be ashamed of, to being something that the younger generation is much more open about. For example, I remember reading Asimov when I was a kid. His earlier books were all very buttoned up, with highly intellectual and in depth discussions of galactic politics or robots. Then his later books are full of sex. I gather that Asimov in his later years gained a reputation for being somewhat creepy too.
UncleMeat 5y ago
Dude was smart, but definitely a sexist. He didn't believe that women would be as capable of doing physics and engaged in some really awful behaviors that were weird even at the time (having meetings at a strip club? asking to paint students in the nude? really?). The lockpicking stuff in "Surely..." is a really fun chapter but also makes it clear that Feynman does not actually care that much about inconveniencing others. It was a fun intellectual exercise but actually harmed other people, which is pretty shitty behavior. It is just a little hard to read a book when assholish behavior just shows up with such frequency. Feynman was a genius, a great storyteller, and a lot of the content in his books is fabulous. But some of the material sours it.
- pcthrowaway 5y ago
  > He didn't believe that women would be as capable of doing physics Interesting, from having read about his sister[1] I really got the impression that this limiting belief was something he bucked heavily, despite having been explicitly taught women were incapable of science by their mother and grandmother: > Joan was an inquisitive child, and she exhibited an interest in understanding the natural world from an early age. However, her mother and grandmother both dissuaded her from pursuing science, since they believed that women's brains were not physically capable of understanding complex scientific concepts in the way that men's brains could. Despite this, her brother Richard always encouraged her to be curious about the universe. It was he who originally introduced young Joan to auroras when, one night, he coaxed her out of bed to witness the northern lights flickering above an empty golf course near their home [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Feynman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Feynman
  - UncleMeat 5y ago
    Most people who hold bigoted beliefs permit exceptions. Feynman is on written record saying things like being surprised that a particular person was able to do physics, given that they were a woman. It would not surprise me even a little that there were some women that Feynman believed to be intellectual exceptions while also holding nasty beliefs about women in general. Even if all of this is excused as a product of the man's time (I don't believe that all of it can be), it still adds a disappointing aura to the otherwise fascinating stories he tells.

I guess you do not go to a topless bar to pay respect to and trean women with equality and respect.

I don't know, I don't disapprove of any of those things morally or anything, but it just got old eventually. As an example, somewhere in the later parts of the book he talks about a period where he starts painting, and very shortly afterward he starts trying to convince women to let him paint them nude, including a student at the institution where he was a professor. Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with nudity, or anything inherently sexual about nudity in art, or even anything morally wrong with the desire to see naked women. But by that point after some of his other stories I started to see him as a somewhat creepy dude and it just came off to me like, oh of course, shortly after taking up this interesting art form you'd go straight to using it as a reason to see naked women, typical Feynman. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with anything he did in any of his stories, all of the parties were consenting in them all, it just left an unpleasant taste in my mouth.

chris_j 5y ago
Thanks for expanding. I had forgotten about the painting anecdote. As others have pointed out, a lot men in that era seemed similar in a way. I'd been assuming that going through all the changes that happened in the 60s as a middle aged man must have had a certain effect on them. Seeing expressions of sexuality go from being something very private, something to be ashamed of, to being something that the younger generation is much more open about. For example, I remember reading Asimov when I was a kid. His earlier books were all very buttoned up, with highly intellectual and in depth discussions of galactic politics or robots. Then his later books are full of sex. I gather that Asimov in his later years gained a reputation for being somewhat creepy too.

UncleMeat 5y ago

Dude was smart, but definitely a sexist. He didn't believe that women would be as capable of doing physics and engaged in some really awful behaviors that were weird even at the time (having meetings at a strip club? asking to paint students in the nude? really?). The lockpicking stuff in "Surely..." is a really fun chapter but also makes it clear that Feynman does not actually care that much about inconveniencing others. It was a fun intellectual exercise but actually harmed other people, which is pretty shitty behavior. It is just a little hard to read a book when assholish behavior just shows up with such frequency. Feynman was a genius, a great storyteller, and a lot of the content in his books is fabulous. But some of the material sours it.

pcthrowaway 5y ago
> He didn't believe that women would be as capable of doing physics Interesting, from having read about his sister[1] I really got the impression that this limiting belief was something he bucked heavily, despite having been explicitly taught women were incapable of science by their mother and grandmother: > Joan was an inquisitive child, and she exhibited an interest in understanding the natural world from an early age. However, her mother and grandmother both dissuaded her from pursuing science, since they believed that women's brains were not physically capable of understanding complex scientific concepts in the way that men's brains could. Despite this, her brother Richard always encouraged her to be curious about the universe. It was he who originally introduced young Joan to auroras when, one night, he coaxed her out of bed to witness the northern lights flickering above an empty golf course near their home [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Feynman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Feynman
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  Most people who hold bigoted beliefs permit exceptions. Feynman is on written record saying things like being surprised that a particular person was able to do physics, given that they were a woman. It would not surprise me even a little that there were some women that Feynman believed to be intellectual exceptions while also holding nasty beliefs about women in general. Even if all of this is excused as a product of the man's time (I don't believe that all of it can be), it still adds a disappointing aura to the otherwise fascinating stories he tells.