6 ms·

Tiberius, Imperial Detective

69 points by diodorus 6y ago

throw0101a 6y ago
If anyone wants to read about mystery/crime investigation in Ancient Rome, the SPQR series is a bunch of fun fictional books (of questionable historical accuracy): > The stories are told in first-person form by Senator Decius Caecilius Metellus the Younger (born c 90-95 BC), nephew of Metellus Pius and member of the powerful Caecilius Metellus family of the Roman Senate. The stories are told in flashback-form by the old Decius, writing during the reign of Augustus Caesar. The stories range from 70 BC (The King's Gambit) to 20 BC ("The King of Sacrifices"). * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPQR_series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPQR_series For non-fiction, see Infamy: The Crimes of Ancient Rome by Jerry Toner: > Join the historian Jerry Toner on a detective's hunt to discover the extent of Rome's crimes. From the sexual peccadillos of Tiberius and Nero to the chances of getting burgled if you left your apartment unguarded (pretty high, especially if the walls were thin enough to knock through) he leaves no stone unturned in his quest to bring the Eternal City to book. * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43684657-infamy https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43684657-infamy
- Ice_cream_suit 6y ago
  Thanks, the series sounds interesting !
  - B1FF_PSUVM 6y ago
    I've sampled a lot of historical fiction set in classic Rome, and John Maddox Roberts is the writer who's closer to getting the 'flavor' right, to my mind. I mean in a sense of not letting modern issues, tastes and sensibilities leak into the classical (un-romantic) callous, deeply rustic, mindset barely dented by urban sophistication in large cities.
    - FridayoLeary 6y ago
      let us not forget what must be the greatest work of historical, roman fiction: asterix. Incidentally, most of my knowledge of ancient roman culture comes from those comics. Also, an insight into european culture as it looked in the 1970s and 60s.
- jweir 6y ago
  For kids there are the Roman Mysteries by Caroline Lawrence. My daughter is reading them and loves the books. I have not read the books except for a bit here and there - and what I have read is well written, fun and seems be accurate.
- jojohohanon 6y ago
  Also: Steven saylor’s “Gordianus, the finder” series. Tho this is likely completely fictional except incidental details of the setting in Rome just pre AD.
irrational 6y ago
> We pay taxes so the state will keep us safe. On the other hand, we don’t expect the state to be getting all up in our bedrooms, legalizing who women can have sex with or rewarding women with public honors for having children. That’s private. The Romans, however, saw things very differently. Rewarding women for babies was A-OK, making laws about how much jewelry a girl could wear was just sensible policy. But murder? That was family business. I love reading things like this. Its a good reminder that things we think are common sense (like the government being involved in murder but not in legislating how much jewelry a girl can wear) are not necessarily so. They are very much cultural based. And these are both human cultures. What would an alien culture think is common sense?
- wolverine876 6y ago
  > Its a good reminder that things we think are common sense (like the government being involved in murder but not in legislating how much jewelry a girl can wear) are not necessarily so. They are very much cultural based. And these are both human cultures. What would an alien culture think is common sense? First, I think the word "culture" is extremely loaded and ambiguous, and stereotypes great masses of individuals each with their own opinions, and to make static things that constantly change. But that said, whatever it is, it exists somehow. IMHO this relativism argument - that it's nothing more than local 'culture' - is greatly overstated. The evidence is that individual liberty is a principle embraced by people almost every place that they have had the choice: The U.S., almost every country in Europe, Japan, China (where they have a choice - in Taiwan, in Hong Kong until very recently, and in Tienanmen Square in 1989 - they strongly advocate for it), Korea, India, almost every country in Latin America, Tunisia, Syria (where they had a choice), Benin, Botswana, etc. etc. In addition, people risk their lives to travel from repressive countries without traditions of liberty to free countries and they strongly embrace the freedom. My ancestors did. Finally, you don't see people migrating the other way. (I don't see how speculating on unknown, non-human, intelligent lifeforms informs the discussion.)
  - whakim 6y ago
    I feel that you've kind of missed GP's point, which is that we tend to take for granted the functions of the state, when in fact those functions have shifted over time. For example, it was not until relatively recently (i.e., the 20th century) that providing a social safety net came to be considered a core competency of governments. To take another example: the Roman Empire provided free rations of grain and olive oil (the annona) to all citizens of Rome and Constantinople for several hundred years. This was an incredibly big deal because it a) set a high base level of demand for bulk goods that enabled the huge economies of scale upon which Roman long distance trade operated; and b) enabled the populations of Rome and Constantinople to reach levels that no European city would again equal until the Early Modern period. Romans probably viewed the annona like modern Americans view social security. Romans would (probably) have thought social security ridiculous, whereas most Americans would view the annona as a large scale encroachment by the state on market pricing of commodities.
Animats 6y ago
The original, from Tacitus's Annals: About the same time Plautius Silvanus, the praetor, for unknown reasons, threw his wife Apronia out of a window. When summoned before the emperor by Lucius Apronius, his father-in-law, he replied incoherently, representing that he was in a sound sleep and consequently knew nothing, and that his wife had chosen to destroy herself. Without a moment's delay Tiberius went to the house and inspected the chamber, where were seen the marks of her struggling and of her forcible ejection. He reported this to the Senate, and as soon as judges had been appointed, Urgulania, the grandmother of Silvanus, sent her grandson a dagger. This was thought equivalent to a hint from the emperor, because of the known intimacy between Augusta and Urgulania. The accused tried the steel in vain, and then allowed his veins to be opened. Shortly afterwards Numantina, his former wife, was charged with having caused her husband's insanity by magical incantations and potions, but she was acquitted. Bear in mind that this was written 80 years or so after the event, so it's at least third-hand.
Borrible 6y ago
Sometimes it was just an accident on the way to the forum... https://crimereads.com/the-invention-of-murder-how-the-ancient-romans-codified-their-bizarre-views-on-murder/ https://crimereads.com/the-invention-of-murder-how-the-ancie... But then, you still have quite large areas on this planet with a state and codified law, but de facto pre-state legal structures. So called failed states, tribal clan jurisdiction, gang, mafia and insurgent organisations that are or were the law in, for example, southern Italy, the IRA in northern Ireland back than or more 'lawless' slums on this planet like the favelas in south America. And so on. There are reasons, it took some time, a few thousand years at least, for large parts of the population to realize that following abstract laws by everyone is an advantage and that more, how should I put it, federalist approaches can be insufficient. Human rights are an achievement not a given.

69 points by diodorus 6y ago

If anyone wants to read about mystery/crime investigation in Ancient Rome, the SPQR series is a bunch of fun fictional books (of questionable historical accuracy): > The stories are told in first-person form by Senator Decius Caecilius Metellus the Younger (born c 90-95 BC), nephew of Metellus Pius and member of the powerful Caecilius Metellus family of the Roman Senate. The stories are told in flashback-form by the old Decius, writing during the reign of Augustus Caesar. The stories range from 70 BC (The King's Gambit) to 20 BC ("The King of Sacrifices"). * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPQR_series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPQR_series For non-fiction, see Infamy: The Crimes of Ancient Rome by Jerry Toner: > Join the historian Jerry Toner on a detective's hunt to discover the extent of Rome's crimes. From the sexual peccadillos of Tiberius and Nero to the chances of getting burgled if you left your apartment unguarded (pretty high, especially if the walls were thin enough to knock through) he leaves no stone unturned in his quest to bring the Eternal City to book. * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43684657-infamy https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/43684657-infamy

Ice_cream_suit 6y ago
Thanks, the series sounds interesting !
- B1FF_PSUVM 6y ago
  I've sampled a lot of historical fiction set in classic Rome, and John Maddox Roberts is the writer who's closer to getting the 'flavor' right, to my mind. I mean in a sense of not letting modern issues, tastes and sensibilities leak into the classical (un-romantic) callous, deeply rustic, mindset barely dented by urban sophistication in large cities.
  - FridayoLeary 6y ago
    let us not forget what must be the greatest work of historical, roman fiction: asterix. Incidentally, most of my knowledge of ancient roman culture comes from those comics. Also, an insight into european culture as it looked in the 1970s and 60s.
jweir 6y ago
For kids there are the Roman Mysteries by Caroline Lawrence. My daughter is reading them and loves the books. I have not read the books except for a bit here and there - and what I have read is well written, fun and seems be accurate.
jojohohanon 6y ago
Also: Steven saylor’s “Gordianus, the finder” series. Tho this is likely completely fictional except incidental details of the setting in Rome just pre AD.

irrational 6y ago

> We pay taxes so the state will keep us safe. On the other hand, we don’t expect the state to be getting all up in our bedrooms, legalizing who women can have sex with or rewarding women with public honors for having children. That’s private. The Romans, however, saw things very differently. Rewarding women for babies was A-OK, making laws about how much jewelry a girl could wear was just sensible policy. But murder? That was family business. I love reading things like this. Its a good reminder that things we think are common sense (like the government being involved in murder but not in legislating how much jewelry a girl can wear) are not necessarily so. They are very much cultural based. And these are both human cultures. What would an alien culture think is common sense?

wolverine876 6y ago
> Its a good reminder that things we think are common sense (like the government being involved in murder but not in legislating how much jewelry a girl can wear) are not necessarily so. They are very much cultural based. And these are both human cultures. What would an alien culture think is common sense? First, I think the word "culture" is extremely loaded and ambiguous, and stereotypes great masses of individuals each with their own opinions, and to make static things that constantly change. But that said, whatever it is, it exists somehow. IMHO this relativism argument - that it's nothing more than local 'culture' - is greatly overstated. The evidence is that individual liberty is a principle embraced by people almost every place that they have had the choice: The U.S., almost every country in Europe, Japan, China (where they have a choice - in Taiwan, in Hong Kong until very recently, and in Tienanmen Square in 1989 - they strongly advocate for it), Korea, India, almost every country in Latin America, Tunisia, Syria (where they had a choice), Benin, Botswana, etc. etc. In addition, people risk their lives to travel from repressive countries without traditions of liberty to free countries and they strongly embrace the freedom. My ancestors did. Finally, you don't see people migrating the other way. (I don't see how speculating on unknown, non-human, intelligent lifeforms informs the discussion.)
- whakim 6y ago
  I feel that you've kind of missed GP's point, which is that we tend to take for granted the functions of the state, when in fact those functions have shifted over time. For example, it was not until relatively recently (i.e., the 20th century) that providing a social safety net came to be considered a core competency of governments. To take another example: the Roman Empire provided free rations of grain and olive oil (the annona) to all citizens of Rome and Constantinople for several hundred years. This was an incredibly big deal because it a) set a high base level of demand for bulk goods that enabled the huge economies of scale upon which Roman long distance trade operated; and b) enabled the populations of Rome and Constantinople to reach levels that no European city would again equal until the Early Modern period. Romans probably viewed the annona like modern Americans view social security. Romans would (probably) have thought social security ridiculous, whereas most Americans would view the annona as a large scale encroachment by the state on market pricing of commodities.

Animats 6y ago

The original, from Tacitus's Annals: About the same time Plautius Silvanus, the praetor, for unknown reasons, threw his wife Apronia out of a window. When summoned before the emperor by Lucius Apronius, his father-in-law, he replied incoherently, representing that he was in a sound sleep and consequently knew nothing, and that his wife had chosen to destroy herself. Without a moment's delay Tiberius went to the house and inspected the chamber, where were seen the marks of her struggling and of her forcible ejection. He reported this to the Senate, and as soon as judges had been appointed, Urgulania, the grandmother of Silvanus, sent her grandson a dagger. This was thought equivalent to a hint from the emperor, because of the known intimacy between Augusta and Urgulania. The accused tried the steel in vain, and then allowed his veins to be opened. Shortly afterwards Numantina, his former wife, was charged with having caused her husband's insanity by magical incantations and potions, but she was acquitted. Bear in mind that this was written 80 years or so after the event, so it's at least third-hand.

Borrible 6y ago

Sometimes it was just an accident on the way to the forum... https://crimereads.com/the-invention-of-murder-how-the-ancient-romans-codified-their-bizarre-views-on-murder/ https://crimereads.com/the-invention-of-murder-how-the-ancie... But then, you still have quite large areas on this planet with a state and codified law, but de facto pre-state legal structures. So called failed states, tribal clan jurisdiction, gang, mafia and insurgent organisations that are or were the law in, for example, southern Italy, the IRA in northern Ireland back than or more 'lawless' slums on this planet like the favelas in south America. And so on. There are reasons, it took some time, a few thousand years at least, for large parts of the population to realize that following abstract laws by everyone is an advantage and that more, how should I put it, federalist approaches can be insufficient. Human rights are an achievement not a given.