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And what of the merits? If the previous 190 patches were indeed legitimate it strikes me as overly vengeful to pull them in a "punish the son for the sins of th

And what of the merits? If the previous 190 patches were indeed legitimate it strikes me as overly vengeful to pull them in a "punish the son for the sins of the father and the father for the sins of the son" kind of way.

jimsug 6y ago
Agree that it could be seen as excessive, but this was not just in response to these commits, but also to the university's failure to act once they were informed of them. They university, and indeed, the researchers, only acted once the ban was imposed - i.e. they were getting away with it without reputational damage, and only once it was stained did they actually do anything.
andreareina 6y ago
Or it's not in vengeance, but caution after the researchers have demonstrated that they put their needs above the community's. When the presumption of innocence is lost, it's appropriate to revert the patches until they are known to be good. ETA: GKH on reverting the patches[1] > This patchset has the "easy" reverts, there are 68 remaining ones that need to be manually reviewed. Some of them are not able to be reverted as they already have been reverted, or fixed up with follow-on patches as they were determined to be invalid. Proof that these submissions were almost universally wrong. [1] https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20210421130105.1226686-1-gregkh@linuxfoundation.org/ https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20210421130105.1226686-1-gregkh...
- x3__ 5y ago
  counterpoint: The LF Technical Advisory Board is taking a look at the history of UMN's contributions and their associated research projects. At present, it seems the vast majority of patches have been in good faith, but we're continuing to review the work. Several public conversations have already started around our expectations of contributors. https://lwn.net/Articles/854064/ https://lwn.net/Articles/854064/ What the authors did is wrong, so did GKH actions. Let's be honest in calling BS out.
foerbert 6y ago
I don't think it's particularly vengeful. I think it's a pretty natural result of the broken trust. Yeah, the authors are claiming those past 190 patches are fine... but they also essentially did the same thing when they submitted the intentionally bad patches too. So the question is, how much do you trust them right now? And given they just submitted intentionally bad patches, I don't think it's very surprising they don't have a whole lot of trust. And if you don't trust them, then you've got 190 patches active from an untrusted source with a history of submitting bad patches. That's not a particularly good situation. Why wouldn't you revert them? The specifics of the situation make the whole thing substantially murkier, in my (entirely unrelated) opinion. But take a broad enough view, and this is pretty much the default path. However the specifics make this a bit of an oddly exceptional situation, all things considered.
jraph 6y ago
The patches are pulled so they can be reviewed carefully before being re-applied, not as a punishment.
- Covzire 6y ago
  Ah that makes more sense, thanks.
grey-area 6y ago
Why would you trust anyone who pulls this kind of stunt? IMO pulling all commits pending review and banning future commits is a reasonable precaution, particularly given this disingenuous apology and the failings of the University oversight board.
ddingus 6y ago
The developers likely see a systemic problem, not just this group. That very significantly expands their scope of action.
denton-scratch 5y ago
Problem is, hardly anyone is spending money on lawyers to defend Free Software. So the cheapest way to defend Free Software is to ban submissions from people who have a record of submitting crap. Blocking an entire University seems extreme; but just think of it as a sanction on the University's ethics board. I think a (short, and very explicit) apology from the ethics board ought to suffice, to get the Uni off the hook. And I think those researchers should not be allowed near Free Software again, unless their pushes are going to be rigourously scrutinised.

jimsug 6y ago

Agree that it could be seen as excessive, but this was not just in response to these commits, but also to the university's failure to act once they were informed of them. They university, and indeed, the researchers, only acted once the ban was imposed - i.e. they were getting away with it without reputational damage, and only once it was stained did they actually do anything.

andreareina 6y ago

Or it's not in vengeance, but caution after the researchers have demonstrated that they put their needs above the community's. When the presumption of innocence is lost, it's appropriate to revert the patches until they are known to be good. ETA: GKH on reverting the patches[1] > This patchset has the "easy" reverts, there are 68 remaining ones that need to be manually reviewed. Some of them are not able to be reverted as they already have been reverted, or fixed up with follow-on patches as they were determined to be invalid. Proof that these submissions were almost universally wrong. [1] https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20210421130105.1226686-1-gregkh@linuxfoundation.org/ https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20210421130105.1226686-1-gregkh...

x3__ 5y ago
counterpoint: The LF Technical Advisory Board is taking a look at the history of UMN's contributions and their associated research projects. At present, it seems the vast majority of patches have been in good faith, but we're continuing to review the work. Several public conversations have already started around our expectations of contributors. https://lwn.net/Articles/854064/ https://lwn.net/Articles/854064/ What the authors did is wrong, so did GKH actions. Let's be honest in calling BS out.

foerbert 6y ago

I don't think it's particularly vengeful. I think it's a pretty natural result of the broken trust. Yeah, the authors are claiming those past 190 patches are fine... but they also essentially did the same thing when they submitted the intentionally bad patches too. So the question is, how much do you trust them right now? And given they just submitted intentionally bad patches, I don't think it's very surprising they don't have a whole lot of trust. And if you don't trust them, then you've got 190 patches active from an untrusted source with a history of submitting bad patches. That's not a particularly good situation. Why wouldn't you revert them? The specifics of the situation make the whole thing substantially murkier, in my (entirely unrelated) opinion. But take a broad enough view, and this is pretty much the default path. However the specifics make this a bit of an oddly exceptional situation, all things considered.

jraph 6y ago

The patches are pulled so they can be reviewed carefully before being re-applied, not as a punishment.

Covzire 6y ago
Ah that makes more sense, thanks.

grey-area 6y ago

Why would you trust anyone who pulls this kind of stunt? IMO pulling all commits pending review and banning future commits is a reasonable precaution, particularly given this disingenuous apology and the failings of the University oversight board.

ddingus 6y ago

The developers likely see a systemic problem, not just this group. That very significantly expands their scope of action.

denton-scratch 5y ago

Problem is, hardly anyone is spending money on lawyers to defend Free Software. So the cheapest way to defend Free Software is to ban submissions from people who have a record of submitting crap. Blocking an entire University seems extreme; but just think of it as a sanction on the University's ethics board. I think a (short, and very explicit) apology from the ethics board ought to suffice, to get the Uni off the hook. And I think those researchers should not be allowed near Free Software again, unless their pushes are going to be rigourously scrutinised.