4 ms·

valid points, but I think some may read this as 'police choose to penalize based on race' kind of proofing. I recently had some deeper insights around this. I

valid points, but I think some may read this as 'police choose to penalize based on race' kind of proofing. I recently had some deeper insights around this. I have witnessed reasoning for these things being different at different times over the years, but the main factor has been calls/reports/complaints from the communities. Busting people at an airbnb in a quite retirement neighborhood as opposed to a college campus, drug complaints blocks from an elem school in a low income area as opposed to breckenridge, co - (which told it's police to leave weed alone many moons ago) - these things are not driven by a nationwide predisposition from those who swear allegiance to the blue cult of the country.. these things are actually driven by the individual community in most cases. I'll admit sometimes that 'community' could be real-estate developers looking to gentrify or whatever- sometimes it could be 'x color people who fear Y people at X place' - and the bicycle thing in the news recently was probably someone complaining and pointing out safety concerns - which had bad optics when viewed through the 'but you don't do that to X percentage of other bikers' - sure.. I also understand there are places where people don't call cops do to fears or reprisal - and I don't think this is a color of skin thing so much. I'd love to deep dive in this further, but my point is that it's not so much cops as a whole are some type of way - it's often more a reflection of individual neighborhoods and communities and their tolerance or lack of tolerance for various things - and often that is what is reflected in reports more than number of crimes committed in X or Y place. Thankfully these things can change - sadly I already see some of pendulum swinging the other way however. In places where people are finding additional freedoms through "progressive DA's, and progressive law changes" some are not considering how their use of such affects other near them. So I expect an ebb and flow of these things based on how annoyed people are by effects - no matter the color of those involved. Now you can point out disproportionate court cases, pleads, incarcerations and all those kinds of stats and get similar points made - and certainly there may be places that look at racial things - but I believe there it is more of an issue of socio-econimc access to legal assistance more than anything - and that is complex too.

runako 6y ago
You went into a lot of detail, but I just wanted to redirect attention to your initial suggestion that higher arrest rates of minorities is indicative of higher crime rates among those folks. You were just posing a question, I know. But the rhetorical device you used (whose name escapes me) prejudices the reader by presuming that the question has a knowable answer, which it does not. And citing arrest records is a red herring, for many of the reasons you elicit. > it's often more a reflection of individual neighborhoods and communities and their tolerance or lack of tolerance for various things Combining this with the larger discussion, are you suggesting that predominantly white communities have a higher tolerance for lawless behavior like drug use, and thus are comfortable being policed at lower rates? (Or the converse, that communities of color are less tolerant of lawbreaking and demand more policing.) I admit that I haven't heard that before. And it makes me uncomfortable, because on balance people I have known across ethnic groups are pretty much the same. It would be a little odd to discover that white communities are generally more tolerant of criminal behavior. > Busting people at an airbnb in a quite retirement neighborhood as opposed to a college campus, drug complaints blocks from an elem school in a low income area as opposed to breckenridge, co - (which told it's police to leave weed alone many moons ago) Intentionally unequal application of the laws starts with this kind of thinking, and leads to downstream problems that spring from the resulting distrust of the justice system. Your Breck (95% white) example is telling. Communities shouldn't be able to exempt themselves from state & federal laws just because most of the residents are white and they have decided they don't like those laws. Even writing it sounds absurd. And it's definitely not a privilege that is afforded to communities of color.
- stevenicr 6y ago
  Indeed, "arrest records is a red herring" basically yes - but it depends on the community and the time frame. Look at new york city in the various time periods - sometimes lots of arrests equal more votes for politicians / DAs.. different time period, same place.. lower arrests equal higher property values. I've seen similar in other places around the US.. my point is that there is always lots of crime, the amount of arrests have to do more with local politics than anything else, however in many cases those local politics are pushed by the local community - if a predominantly black area has lots of black arrests - normally it's (at least a portion) of the community is asking for cracking down on crime. So I think it's not fair to paint 'cops' as letting "X peeps" go across the whole country and stats.. just as it's not fair to say "Y peeps" are committing more crime.. I agree stats do not reflect actual crimes committed - it more shows the local areas tolerance for types of crimes. Which why the opposing view about 420 parties and such you mention is not a good opposing view - it's a local thing. Comparing the arrests in Chicago to tolerance for non-violent smoking in Colorado does not show apples to apples. Those different communities are pressuring politicians differently. Often times a crackdown on arrests for minor things in a 'broken windows' community is done to prevent other crime not the petty stepping stones that are reflected in arrest stats. When you say "redirect attention to your initial suggestion that higher arrest rates of minorities is indicative of higher crime rates among those folks" - I think you are thinking of a comment made by someone else, don't think I was inferring that. Hey, I am with you on the unequal law is bullshit - and I've been advocating for changes in policing for some years now. Unfortunately the climate for discussions on this have the country so divided by arguments with race that it's hard to really get all citizens together for true change. Why is breck mostly white telling? it's the only example I am aware of that did that decades ago - I think if we take the race out of the equation we can have some better discussions about cities VS state on issues like this - we are having large battles in states vs cities with all sorts of important issues these days. The atlantic had an article about this not too long ago. I've watched many city vs state things biol the past several years - it's interesting, and I hope it leads to more people paying attention to state elections and legislatures! If you want to focus on the 'communities of color' not getting similar policing - there could be interesting answers to questions around that - but they may not fit the narrative that is popular right now. In the cities I have experienced lots of blue lights, there are lots of requests from residents to police. It appears to me that things like gun shots bring more cops, assaults on citizens and such bring them out, fighting for territory beings them. If no one called the cops they would rather be eating donuts somewhere I am sure. I know this can vary locale to locale, but I think in general in most places around the US, harder policing is brought by request, and more is brought by increased violence. Now - the time period that bloomberg had his "stop and frisk" - that huge unconstitutional violation of rights for years - I will march with you that the disproportionate results of that crap appear to be focused on mostly minorities - and even if they try to say the results justified the means - I disagree and could not believe we had that going on in this country. Even then - look at the country, it's a very big place, and bloomberg's persecution is a small blip on the map by square miles - so most of the country is not doing that kind of thing the past 50 years. I am glad writing "because most of the residents are white and they have decided they don't like those laws." sounds absurd, because it is - the local community there wrote laws to stop the local police from coming down on weed smokers / sellers.. they did not get a pass from the state and feds, but they also did not have multiple shootings every week over it - which would of brought pressure to crack down on things. Truth is - many 'communities of color' have been asking for strong policing, because they have been hotbeds of violence and don't like it. I do not say this to be divisive by color - I've noticed a big shift since we occupied Afganastan in more 'communities of whites' having had increases in lifestyle changes that have had a large increase in request for more hard core policing in their neighborhoods. I wish we would take white black and all that out of these discussions and get more to citizens expect X types of service from the men and women (and whatever other pronouns) in blue.. we should all at least get the protections listed in the bill or rights. Sadly I have seen recently many asking cops for more intrusions into people's lives and property to stop 'assumed crime' - and this is about white people.. It's like the citizens around here don't even know what the bill of rights says. I assure you this is an American citizen VS the state thing - much more than it's a white vs black thing - in most of the country, most of the time.

runako 6y ago

You went into a lot of detail, but I just wanted to redirect attention to your initial suggestion that higher arrest rates of minorities is indicative of higher crime rates among those folks. You were just posing a question, I know. But the rhetorical device you used (whose name escapes me) prejudices the reader by presuming that the question has a knowable answer, which it does not. And citing arrest records is a red herring, for many of the reasons you elicit. > it's often more a reflection of individual neighborhoods and communities and their tolerance or lack of tolerance for various things Combining this with the larger discussion, are you suggesting that predominantly white communities have a higher tolerance for lawless behavior like drug use, and thus are comfortable being policed at lower rates? (Or the converse, that communities of color are less tolerant of lawbreaking and demand more policing.) I admit that I haven't heard that before. And it makes me uncomfortable, because on balance people I have known across ethnic groups are pretty much the same. It would be a little odd to discover that white communities are generally more tolerant of criminal behavior. > Busting people at an airbnb in a quite retirement neighborhood as opposed to a college campus, drug complaints blocks from an elem school in a low income area as opposed to breckenridge, co - (which told it's police to leave weed alone many moons ago) Intentionally unequal application of the laws starts with this kind of thinking, and leads to downstream problems that spring from the resulting distrust of the justice system. Your Breck (95% white) example is telling. Communities shouldn't be able to exempt themselves from state & federal laws just because most of the residents are white and they have decided they don't like those laws. Even writing it sounds absurd. And it's definitely not a privilege that is afforded to communities of color.

stevenicr 6y ago
Indeed, "arrest records is a red herring" basically yes - but it depends on the community and the time frame. Look at new york city in the various time periods - sometimes lots of arrests equal more votes for politicians / DAs.. different time period, same place.. lower arrests equal higher property values. I've seen similar in other places around the US.. my point is that there is always lots of crime, the amount of arrests have to do more with local politics than anything else, however in many cases those local politics are pushed by the local community - if a predominantly black area has lots of black arrests - normally it's (at least a portion) of the community is asking for cracking down on crime. So I think it's not fair to paint 'cops' as letting "X peeps" go across the whole country and stats.. just as it's not fair to say "Y peeps" are committing more crime.. I agree stats do not reflect actual crimes committed - it more shows the local areas tolerance for types of crimes. Which why the opposing view about 420 parties and such you mention is not a good opposing view - it's a local thing. Comparing the arrests in Chicago to tolerance for non-violent smoking in Colorado does not show apples to apples. Those different communities are pressuring politicians differently. Often times a crackdown on arrests for minor things in a 'broken windows' community is done to prevent other crime not the petty stepping stones that are reflected in arrest stats. When you say "redirect attention to your initial suggestion that higher arrest rates of minorities is indicative of higher crime rates among those folks" - I think you are thinking of a comment made by someone else, don't think I was inferring that. Hey, I am with you on the unequal law is bullshit - and I've been advocating for changes in policing for some years now. Unfortunately the climate for discussions on this have the country so divided by arguments with race that it's hard to really get all citizens together for true change. Why is breck mostly white telling? it's the only example I am aware of that did that decades ago - I think if we take the race out of the equation we can have some better discussions about cities VS state on issues like this - we are having large battles in states vs cities with all sorts of important issues these days. The atlantic had an article about this not too long ago. I've watched many city vs state things biol the past several years - it's interesting, and I hope it leads to more people paying attention to state elections and legislatures! If you want to focus on the 'communities of color' not getting similar policing - there could be interesting answers to questions around that - but they may not fit the narrative that is popular right now. In the cities I have experienced lots of blue lights, there are lots of requests from residents to police. It appears to me that things like gun shots bring more cops, assaults on citizens and such bring them out, fighting for territory beings them. If no one called the cops they would rather be eating donuts somewhere I am sure. I know this can vary locale to locale, but I think in general in most places around the US, harder policing is brought by request, and more is brought by increased violence. Now - the time period that bloomberg had his "stop and frisk" - that huge unconstitutional violation of rights for years - I will march with you that the disproportionate results of that crap appear to be focused on mostly minorities - and even if they try to say the results justified the means - I disagree and could not believe we had that going on in this country. Even then - look at the country, it's a very big place, and bloomberg's persecution is a small blip on the map by square miles - so most of the country is not doing that kind of thing the past 50 years. I am glad writing "because most of the residents are white and they have decided they don't like those laws." sounds absurd, because it is - the local community there wrote laws to stop the local police from coming down on weed smokers / sellers.. they did not get a pass from the state and feds, but they also did not have multiple shootings every week over it - which would of brought pressure to crack down on things. Truth is - many 'communities of color' have been asking for strong policing, because they have been hotbeds of violence and don't like it. I do not say this to be divisive by color - I've noticed a big shift since we occupied Afganastan in more 'communities of whites' having had increases in lifestyle changes that have had a large increase in request for more hard core policing in their neighborhoods. I wish we would take white black and all that out of these discussions and get more to citizens expect X types of service from the men and women (and whatever other pronouns) in blue.. we should all at least get the protections listed in the bill or rights. Sadly I have seen recently many asking cops for more intrusions into people's lives and property to stop 'assumed crime' - and this is about white people.. It's like the citizens around here don't even know what the bill of rights says. I assure you this is an American citizen VS the state thing - much more than it's a white vs black thing - in most of the country, most of the time.