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If they're crediting you for that energy at anything close to the retail electricity rate you're effectively getting a really generous subsidy. Because solar is

by makomk 6y ago

If they're crediting you for that energy at anything close to the retail electricity rate you're effectively getting a really generous subsidy. Because solar is so cheap but only produces electricity sometimes and at pretty much the same time everywhere in the region, the actual cost of electricity when your solar panels are producing heavily and feeding back into the grid is much, much lower than when they're not producing and you're a net consumer of grid power. Not only that, but it's a subsidy that's likely paid to wealthy people who can afford to install solar by poorer people who can't.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
These fallacies against net metering have been disproven. See the linked citation for details. “Nevertheless, by the end of 2015, regulators in at least 10 states had conducted studies to develop methodologies to value distributed generation and net metering, while other states conducted less formal inquiries, ranging from direct rate design or net-metering policy changes to general education of decisionmakers and the public. And there is a degree of consensus. What do the commission-sponsored analyses show? A growing number show that net metering benefits all utility customers.” https://www.brookings.edu/research/rooftop-solar-net-metering-is-a-net-benefit/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/rooftop-solar-net-meterin...
- mulmboy 6y ago
  The post didn't describe net metering edit: actually I think it did :) ignore me
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - bob29 6y ago
    Why isn't it net metering? It seems to be net metering whether you count in kilowatt hours or dollars. They are selling back to the grid, with a smart meter that counts power in both direction. Theres many types of policies in net metering like details about what rate you buy and sell power to the utility. In some less favorable places, the grid sells you power at retail prices but buys it back from you at wholesale. In these places, to achieve a $0 utility bill you would be generating more during the day than you consume at night. If your net metering deal paid back at retail rates you may get a credit, but as far as i understand each utility can offer totally different net metering deals, if they offer it at all.
- jjoonathan 6y ago
  That link of yours states again and again and again that net metering doesn't cost shift as if this were a general principle, but if you look at its sub resources you see support for very different conclusions, namely: * Solar doesn't yet have enough market penetration for the duck curve to be a problem. We're still in the early days where cutting peak usage benefits everyone. * Social good rationalizes the cost shifting "It hasn't happened yet" and "it's for the best" are VERY different arguments from "it won't happen." Why the deception? Shifting the grid's role from generation to storage is not impossible. Barring that, distributed storage is not impossible. Making PV panels cheap was a huge but tractable step that is now behind us. Figuring out storage is the second huge but tractable step and it's well on the way to being solved. In the meantime, it absolutely makes sense to deploy PV at least until it starts cutting into base load, and from that point the economic case for storage becomes clear and obvious. The facts are on our side, so why lie?
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    I’m satisfied with the data and contents of the post to substantiate my assertion. You are free to cite your own sources if you disagree. I believe the Brookings Institute to be a reportable source. My intent in no way is to deceive or put forth bad data.
    - jjoonathan 6y ago
      Your source doesn't support your assertion, but I suppose you're free to ignore that little problem if you want to. In the meantime, we should be talking about how best to make storage happen, because anyone who isn't busy playing semantics games can see that storage (critically: paying for storage) is going to dominate the back half of this transition.
      - shkkmo 6y ago
        The claims were being made that net metering currently has a set of issues that makes the referenced policy a generous policy. The link provides seems plenty to refute that claim to me. You seem to be moving the goals posts here. If you combine net metering with time based pricing, it seems like there is plenty of incentive for smart people like you to build energy storage and make money off of arbitrage.
philips 6y ago
In oregon you can also sign up for community solar, get a state sponsored discount on your bill, and not put up the capital costs to install yourself. https://www.energytrust.org/community-solar/ https://www.energytrust.org/community-solar/
Spooky23 6y ago
Peak solar production is in the summer. Peak electricity demand is driven by AC, primarily when it’s hot... in the summer.
- edoceo 6y ago
  cascadia summers hardly need AC too, it rarely gets over 35c
  - baumy 6y ago
    35 Celsius = 95 Fahrenheit for my fellow yanks. That seems like a pretty extreme line to draw for "when do I need AC". I don't know about you, but the indoor temperature above which I start wanting AC is around 72-75F, or ~23C. Lots of the PNW gets over that for much of the summer. It didn't used to be this way, but I've wanted AC in Seattle for at least a few weeks a year, sometimes as much as 6 - 8 weeks, since 2013 or 2014. Particularly because the insulation in a lot of apartment buildings meant to make them more efficient in winter causes them to heat up like a furnace in a hot summer.
    - jdminhbg 6y ago
      It can really depend on how much air circulation you can get. In a high rise, you will need AC, but if you’re in a house you can easily manage with open windows and ideally a fan in your roof that can pull air up and in. There are very few days even in Portland where the temps don’t fall into comfortable as soon as the sun sets.
  - mjevans 6y ago
    At least by the sounds and oceans it's a rather humid heat. AC sure is a quality of life if not a necessity of life... Though if our homes were built for this climate rather than by Californian companies using shoddily adapted designs it might be another story.
  - irrational 6y ago
    That's not true. At least not where I live in the Portland Metro Area. Mid July - early September is pretty much constantly 35+C.
irrational 6y ago
Our system generates about 10 MWh per year (10 million watts of electricity). Our house isn't that big (1800 sq feet) and we have all LED lights and the highest energy saving appliances. We don't use anywhere near that many watts in a year. Our surplus credits easily cover our energy costs during Winter.
- handol 6y ago
  > (10 million watts of electricity) 10 million watt-hours of electricity Your system would produce 10 million watts if it did 10 million watt-hours per hour.
  - irrational 6y ago
    Yeah, I don’t know the right way to write it. When I look at the app the reports our solar panel output and say I just want the output for all of 2020, it reports a figure just shy of 10 MWh. The previous years were close to the same figure. How do you say what the total output from a system was over an entire year?
    - philipkglass 6y ago
      10 megawatt hours is fine. 10 megawatts is incorrect. It's a mistake of units. A MWh is an energy measure while a MW is a power measure. That's what the parent was correcting.
    - phonon 6y ago
      You can say 36,000 Megajoules if you prefer :-)
- seriousquestion 6y ago
  That sounds great. What kind of heating system?
  - irrational 6y ago
    Natural gas furnace. I probably would have gone electric if we had installed the furnace after the solar panels went in. But, our natural gas bill is so small that I don’t really worry about it.
tzs 6y ago
Oregon's electricity is only 0.75% from solar, which should mean that variations in solar output have almost no effect on the price or production levels.
- neltnerb 6y ago
  I would hope at such small levels of production, the proximity to the user would reduce power losses and be automatically corrected for by the timing generators so as to shift production closer to the user. It does seem like close to retail rates aren't outrageous to believe are fair for small quantities. I think you'd need to get to the point where generation was a significant fraction of local usage before transmission was costly or inefficient... but by then you'd likely find batteries cheap enough to also just load shift by physically storing the electricity in small buildings around a city. Maybe the retail rate should go down, but it does make some sense for a tiny generator right next to or even in the same building as a user should get closer to retail rates than generator rates. If enough people did it they could eliminate transmission lines entirely and just use batteries.

by makomk 6y ago

toomuchtodo 6y ago

These fallacies against net metering have been disproven. See the linked citation for details. “Nevertheless, by the end of 2015, regulators in at least 10 states had conducted studies to develop methodologies to value distributed generation and net metering, while other states conducted less formal inquiries, ranging from direct rate design or net-metering policy changes to general education of decisionmakers and the public. And there is a degree of consensus. What do the commission-sponsored analyses show? A growing number show that net metering benefits all utility customers.” https://www.brookings.edu/research/rooftop-solar-net-metering-is-a-net-benefit/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/rooftop-solar-net-meterin...

mulmboy 6y ago
The post didn't describe net metering edit: actually I think it did :) ignore me
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- bob29 6y ago
  Why isn't it net metering? It seems to be net metering whether you count in kilowatt hours or dollars. They are selling back to the grid, with a smart meter that counts power in both direction. Theres many types of policies in net metering like details about what rate you buy and sell power to the utility. In some less favorable places, the grid sells you power at retail prices but buys it back from you at wholesale. In these places, to achieve a $0 utility bill you would be generating more during the day than you consume at night. If your net metering deal paid back at retail rates you may get a credit, but as far as i understand each utility can offer totally different net metering deals, if they offer it at all.
jjoonathan 6y ago
That link of yours states again and again and again that net metering doesn't cost shift as if this were a general principle, but if you look at its sub resources you see support for very different conclusions, namely: * Solar doesn't yet have enough market penetration for the duck curve to be a problem. We're still in the early days where cutting peak usage benefits everyone. * Social good rationalizes the cost shifting "It hasn't happened yet" and "it's for the best" are VERY different arguments from "it won't happen." Why the deception? Shifting the grid's role from generation to storage is not impossible. Barring that, distributed storage is not impossible. Making PV panels cheap was a huge but tractable step that is now behind us. Figuring out storage is the second huge but tractable step and it's well on the way to being solved. In the meantime, it absolutely makes sense to deploy PV at least until it starts cutting into base load, and from that point the economic case for storage becomes clear and obvious. The facts are on our side, so why lie?
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  I’m satisfied with the data and contents of the post to substantiate my assertion. You are free to cite your own sources if you disagree. I believe the Brookings Institute to be a reportable source. My intent in no way is to deceive or put forth bad data.
  - jjoonathan 6y ago
    Your source doesn't support your assertion, but I suppose you're free to ignore that little problem if you want to. In the meantime, we should be talking about how best to make storage happen, because anyone who isn't busy playing semantics games can see that storage (critically: paying for storage) is going to dominate the back half of this transition.
    - shkkmo 6y ago
      The claims were being made that net metering currently has a set of issues that makes the referenced policy a generous policy. The link provides seems plenty to refute that claim to me. You seem to be moving the goals posts here. If you combine net metering with time based pricing, it seems like there is plenty of incentive for smart people like you to build energy storage and make money off of arbitrage.

philips 6y ago

In oregon you can also sign up for community solar, get a state sponsored discount on your bill, and not put up the capital costs to install yourself. https://www.energytrust.org/community-solar/ https://www.energytrust.org/community-solar/

Spooky23 6y ago

Peak solar production is in the summer. Peak electricity demand is driven by AC, primarily when it’s hot... in the summer.

edoceo 6y ago
cascadia summers hardly need AC too, it rarely gets over 35c
- baumy 6y ago
  35 Celsius = 95 Fahrenheit for my fellow yanks. That seems like a pretty extreme line to draw for "when do I need AC". I don't know about you, but the indoor temperature above which I start wanting AC is around 72-75F, or ~23C. Lots of the PNW gets over that for much of the summer. It didn't used to be this way, but I've wanted AC in Seattle for at least a few weeks a year, sometimes as much as 6 - 8 weeks, since 2013 or 2014. Particularly because the insulation in a lot of apartment buildings meant to make them more efficient in winter causes them to heat up like a furnace in a hot summer.
  - jdminhbg 6y ago
    It can really depend on how much air circulation you can get. In a high rise, you will need AC, but if you’re in a house you can easily manage with open windows and ideally a fan in your roof that can pull air up and in. There are very few days even in Portland where the temps don’t fall into comfortable as soon as the sun sets.
- mjevans 6y ago
  At least by the sounds and oceans it's a rather humid heat. AC sure is a quality of life if not a necessity of life... Though if our homes were built for this climate rather than by Californian companies using shoddily adapted designs it might be another story.
- irrational 6y ago
  That's not true. At least not where I live in the Portland Metro Area. Mid July - early September is pretty much constantly 35+C.

irrational 6y ago

Our system generates about 10 MWh per year (10 million watts of electricity). Our house isn't that big (1800 sq feet) and we have all LED lights and the highest energy saving appliances. We don't use anywhere near that many watts in a year. Our surplus credits easily cover our energy costs during Winter.

handol 6y ago
> (10 million watts of electricity) 10 million watt-hours of electricity Your system would produce 10 million watts if it did 10 million watt-hours per hour.
- irrational 6y ago
  Yeah, I don’t know the right way to write it. When I look at the app the reports our solar panel output and say I just want the output for all of 2020, it reports a figure just shy of 10 MWh. The previous years were close to the same figure. How do you say what the total output from a system was over an entire year?
  - philipkglass 6y ago
    10 megawatt hours is fine. 10 megawatts is incorrect. It's a mistake of units. A MWh is an energy measure while a MW is a power measure. That's what the parent was correcting.
  - phonon 6y ago
    You can say 36,000 Megajoules if you prefer :-)
seriousquestion 6y ago
That sounds great. What kind of heating system?
- irrational 6y ago
  Natural gas furnace. I probably would have gone electric if we had installed the furnace after the solar panels went in. But, our natural gas bill is so small that I don’t really worry about it.

tzs 6y ago

Oregon's electricity is only 0.75% from solar, which should mean that variations in solar output have almost no effect on the price or production levels.

neltnerb 6y ago
I would hope at such small levels of production, the proximity to the user would reduce power losses and be automatically corrected for by the timing generators so as to shift production closer to the user. It does seem like close to retail rates aren't outrageous to believe are fair for small quantities. I think you'd need to get to the point where generation was a significant fraction of local usage before transmission was costly or inefficient... but by then you'd likely find batteries cheap enough to also just load shift by physically storing the electricity in small buildings around a city. Maybe the retail rate should go down, but it does make some sense for a tiny generator right next to or even in the same building as a user should get closer to retail rates than generator rates. If enough people did it they could eliminate transmission lines entirely and just use batteries.