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The owner of the convenience store near me played football for Stanford on a full ride. He's had to walk with a cane, or a walker on a bad day, since his 30s. I

The owner of the convenience store near me played football for Stanford on a full ride. He's had to walk with a cane, or a walker on a bad day, since his 30s. It's an impediment to his job today, as he struggles to get around restocking throughout the day. College football makes obscene amounts of money, while at the same time discarding a ton of young athletes with permanently broken bodies. The TBI stuff in particular is deeply disturbing. I heard a heartbreaking interview with a family where 3 generations are entering dementia simultaneously because the younger 2 both played college ball. Coaches, schools, broadcasters... true fortunes being made by this industry every single day. But somehow giving the dang kids a slice of that ruins the authenticity of the league. What a pile of nonsense.

syops 6y ago
Schools are not making fortunes off of college football. With few exceptions football programs do not pay for themselves with their revenue. I haven't looked into it but I doubt any football program paid for the stadium they use so I wouldn't be surprised if there truly was no such thing as a profitable college football program.
- kevinwang 6y ago
  Where did you hear this? The first Google result shows that many schools are making fortunes off of their football programs (also it's kind of common sense based on the fact that men's football coaches get paid millions and other sports coaches get paid normal amounts)
  - syops 6y ago
    From the linked opinion piece below [1]: A recent N.C.A.A. study determined that only about 20 of the 1,000 or so college sports programs in the nation were profitable. The 30 largest universities in the country each routinely generate annual revenues exceeding $100 million from sports, but according to the National Collegiate Athletic Association, most of those revenues are spent covering operating expenses for the school’s athletic programs and paying tuition for their student-athletes. The majority of Division I colleges in the N.C.A.A. operate at a loss. There is lots of money in college athletics. That money is not going to institutions to generate revenue for the institution at large. That money goes back to the athletic department and almost every college athletic program receives revenue in the form of student fees. Here’s a quote from another piece [2]: By far, the largest student fee is the last – the intercollegiate athletic fee – which can be upwards of 80% of the total fee amount at many institutions not in Power Five conferences. Conventional wisdom says that intercollegiate athletics is a boon to colleges and universities; that it’s wildly profitable; attracts new students; enhances fundraising; and, boosts the university’s profile. Yet these are myths, often perpetuated by the media – and by the universities themselves. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/25/opinion/pay-college-athletes.html?fbclid=IwAR3OwRlgmtkVYvNRZJtX-l1XiZGrtIY6EeDlNRpqzujuAR-cDlKDYJNpclg https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/25/opinion/pay-college-athle... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2014/12/12/who-actually-funds-intercollegiate-athletic-programs/?sh=69775ec417af https://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2014/12/12/who-actually-fu... https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/why-students-foot-the-bill-for-college-sports-and-how-some-are-fighting-back/2015/11/30/7ca47476-8d3e-11e5-ae1f-af46b7df8483_story.html?itid=sf_ https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/why-students-foot-the-...
    - salmo 6y ago
      So that's a little different argument, and more complex. Profit/loss is a weird thing in a non-profit. College Football (in the Power 5, and top tier group of 5) itself is very profitable. But the money is quickly spent on the program and to fund the program and the department as a whole. Also, some stats there include Div II, III, etc. Programs without big TV deals, licensing revenue etc. do not make money from their athletic departments. Not a shocker or really what any of this is referring to. But for the major programs, the money from licensing, TV rights, conference revenue sharing, etc. covers the basics for women's programs and less popular sports. Then it gets dumped along with booster $ into the CFB football facilities arms race, ever growing coaching salaries, and multimillion dollar buyouts of contracts. This isn't totally unique to not-for-profit Universities either. Executive perks in non-profits are another way to make the year-end balance out. Government programs, and corporate departments dump cash at the end of their fiscal years to avoid losing the budget the next year.
      - syops 6y ago
        My claim was about most college sports programs and that the universities don’t profit from sports programs. Div II and Div III programs are relevant to my claim. When there is profit it gets dumped back into the athletic department. The university as a whole does not benefit in most cases. Given the mandatory fees that students pay to athletic departments, the stadiums built by taxpayer funds the argument that college sports generates lots of money for the university as a whole is wrong. Consider this. Take away the most profitable college sports program. Will that college be forced to increase tuition to cover the loss of money for non-athletic related expenses? The answer is no.
- stygiansonic 6y ago
  This article suggests at least some are making quite a bit of money: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2018/09/11/college-footballs-most-valuable-teams/?sh=192198d06c64 https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2018/09/11/college-f... What is that article missing if your assertion is true?
  - syops 6y ago
    My statement was, with few exceptions.... https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/why-students-foot-the-bill-for-college-sports-and-how-some-are-fighting-back/2015/11/30/7ca47476-8d3e-11e5-ae1f-af46b7df8483_story.html?itid=sf_ https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/why-students-foot-the-...
- briandear 6y ago
  Texas A&M has over $220 million a year in revenue. Highly profitable.
  - syops 6y ago
    Yes. Hence the with few exceptions part of my comment. Also profit is revenue - expenses. A $220 million revenue doesn’t say anything about it’s profitability. https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/why-students-foot-the-bill-for-college-sports-and-how-some-are-fighting-back/2015/11/30/7ca47476-8d3e-11e5-ae1f-af46b7df8483_story.html?itid=sf_ https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/why-students-foot-the-...
    - snapetom 6y ago
      Evert P5 school is very profitable with their TV deals. Lesser conferences should also fair very well with TV deals. In terms of sheer numbers of schools, I guess your definition of "few exceptions" hold true. Should the majority of commuter schools, like say California State University, Sacramento, subsidize heavily in athletics? Of course not. However, your UCLA's, Michigans, and Texas A&Ms make insane amount of money, and often give money back to their university.
      - syops 6y ago
        Those D1 schools generate insane amounts of revenue from college and that revenue, in general, goes back to the athletic programs. The university as a whole does use money from those programs to fund education. Those programs don’t pay for their stadiums. They are subsidized by student fees. And those programs that do generate great revenue (but usually not great profit) are still a minority even amongst only D1 schools.
        snapetom 6y ago
        You don’t even check your own math when you make that claim about student fees and stadiums. Stadiums costs nearly a billion to even renovate these days. Assuming a athletic fee of $2k per year at even the largest universities of 40k students. $80 million is a tiny drop in the bucket for a billion. Since you refuse to even do a small amount of research into this, stadiums and capital expenditures are vastly funded by alumni donations. Unofficially that is the biggest metric for athletic director success.
- snapetom 6y ago
  The definition and notions of "profitable" in college athletics is intentionally elusive and varies wildly. Both sides abuse this obfuscation to their advantage, and the articles you link to, besides being archaic, are some of the worst abuses I've seen on this topic. Each state, university, have different requirements on what is reported as subsidies. For example, discounting an out of state athlete's tuition may or may not be a subsidy. In some schools, all of the apparel sold with a school logo is athletics money, while in others, a percentage. And of course, private universities like Stanford, Northwestern, and the Ivys report very little. The articles also strawman the entire argument by using student fees to fund athletics. True, some schools abuse the hell out of them. Some Division III schools have ungodly amounts of athletic fees, and the students will never see their return. However, success in athletics, and football in particular, add to the brand of the school. Anti-athletics faculty love to huff and puff about how this isn't true, but common sense and studies in business schools routinely dispute this. Boston College reported a 3x increase in enrollment the year after Doug Flutie threw his touchdown. University of Alabama's enrollment has gone way up while the acceptance rate has gone way down in Nick Saban's tenure. Even if you never attend a game of any sort in school, you will gain in the perceived value of your degree. > I haven't looked into it but I doubt any football program paid for the stadium they use This tells me all I need to know about your bias on this.
  - syops 6y ago
    How does that last quote of mine show my bias? I’ve cited in other posts numerous articles talking about the lack of profitability of most college athletics. I then stated an opinion of mine and indicated that it was merely an opinion. It’s my perception that athletic programs don’t pay for the stadiums they use. Those stadiums use taxpayer money. I know this to true at FSU and at the University of Minnesota. I’m not an expert on this topic and I gave an opinion on an aspect of this issue that I admittedly didn’t have lots of information. Do you not have opinions, impressions, thought, ideas about things you haven’t studied? Of course you do. In my case I was intellectually honest enough to let the reader distinguish between those thoughts of mine I had ready evidence for and those that I don’t. As to your third paragraph please keep in mind my usage of with rare exceptions. Of course you can cite counter examples to the general trend of college football being a drain on resources. Also note that I’ve cited evidence to back up my beliefs and you have not. You’ve even made a reference to common sense. There are far too many examples of where intuition and common sense are wrong for this to be a legitimate basis for a strong belief.
- anm89 6y ago
  You might want to look into it.
  - syops 6y ago
    I did and couldn’t find any information. I do know at lest 2 major D1 programs have had their stadiums built with taxpayer money and the accounting of those programs’ profitability does not take into account the building of their stadiums. Have you looked into the issue? Do you know of any studies that show college sports programs paying for their stadiums?
- cortesoft 6y ago
  I didn’t say the schools were profiting (although some are). The NCAA itself has built up $700 million in assets. Broadcasters make a ton of money off of college sports. Coaches make a ton of money. There are a lot of people who make a lot of money off of college sports. None of them are players.
Alex3917 6y ago
> He's had to walk with a cane, or a walker on a bad day, since his 30s. If instead of destroying his body playing sports, someone had come and broken his legs with a crowbar, would he be better off? Don't get me wrong, I hate the NCAA, but there's a good reason why amateur sports exist.
- totalZero 6y ago
  Presumably there could be a compensatory and punitive windfall from a lawsuit against the crowbar assailant. So even your somewhat colorful example works against the point you're trying to make.
  - Alex3917 6y ago
    I guess. As a former college athlete though, I do feel like there's something nice about being able to play soccer or whatever without being surrounded by other people who have a financial incentive to murder me.
    - potiuper 6y ago
      What makes you so sure there is no money riding on college sport outcomes?

syops 6y ago

Schools are not making fortunes off of college football. With few exceptions football programs do not pay for themselves with their revenue. I haven't looked into it but I doubt any football program paid for the stadium they use so I wouldn't be surprised if there truly was no such thing as a profitable college football program.

kevinwang 6y ago
Where did you hear this? The first Google result shows that many schools are making fortunes off of their football programs (also it's kind of common sense based on the fact that men's football coaches get paid millions and other sports coaches get paid normal amounts)
- syops 6y ago
  From the linked opinion piece below [1]: A recent N.C.A.A. study determined that only about 20 of the 1,000 or so college sports programs in the nation were profitable. The 30 largest universities in the country each routinely generate annual revenues exceeding $100 million from sports, but according to the National Collegiate Athletic Association, most of those revenues are spent covering operating expenses for the school’s athletic programs and paying tuition for their student-athletes. The majority of Division I colleges in the N.C.A.A. operate at a loss. There is lots of money in college athletics. That money is not going to institutions to generate revenue for the institution at large. That money goes back to the athletic department and almost every college athletic program receives revenue in the form of student fees. Here’s a quote from another piece [2]: By far, the largest student fee is the last – the intercollegiate athletic fee – which can be upwards of 80% of the total fee amount at many institutions not in Power Five conferences. Conventional wisdom says that intercollegiate athletics is a boon to colleges and universities; that it’s wildly profitable; attracts new students; enhances fundraising; and, boosts the university’s profile. Yet these are myths, often perpetuated by the media – and by the universities themselves. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/25/opinion/pay-college-athletes.html?fbclid=IwAR3OwRlgmtkVYvNRZJtX-l1XiZGrtIY6EeDlNRpqzujuAR-cDlKDYJNpclg https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/25/opinion/pay-college-athle... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2014/12/12/who-actually-funds-intercollegiate-athletic-programs/?sh=69775ec417af https://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2014/12/12/who-actually-fu... https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/why-students-foot-the-bill-for-college-sports-and-how-some-are-fighting-back/2015/11/30/7ca47476-8d3e-11e5-ae1f-af46b7df8483_story.html?itid=sf_ https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/why-students-foot-the-...
  - salmo 6y ago
    So that's a little different argument, and more complex. Profit/loss is a weird thing in a non-profit. College Football (in the Power 5, and top tier group of 5) itself is very profitable. But the money is quickly spent on the program and to fund the program and the department as a whole. Also, some stats there include Div II, III, etc. Programs without big TV deals, licensing revenue etc. do not make money from their athletic departments. Not a shocker or really what any of this is referring to. But for the major programs, the money from licensing, TV rights, conference revenue sharing, etc. covers the basics for women's programs and less popular sports. Then it gets dumped along with booster $ into the CFB football facilities arms race, ever growing coaching salaries, and multimillion dollar buyouts of contracts. This isn't totally unique to not-for-profit Universities either. Executive perks in non-profits are another way to make the year-end balance out. Government programs, and corporate departments dump cash at the end of their fiscal years to avoid losing the budget the next year.
    - syops 6y ago
      My claim was about most college sports programs and that the universities don’t profit from sports programs. Div II and Div III programs are relevant to my claim. When there is profit it gets dumped back into the athletic department. The university as a whole does not benefit in most cases. Given the mandatory fees that students pay to athletic departments, the stadiums built by taxpayer funds the argument that college sports generates lots of money for the university as a whole is wrong. Consider this. Take away the most profitable college sports program. Will that college be forced to increase tuition to cover the loss of money for non-athletic related expenses? The answer is no.
stygiansonic 6y ago
This article suggests at least some are making quite a bit of money: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2018/09/11/college-footballs-most-valuable-teams/?sh=192198d06c64 https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/2018/09/11/college-f... What is that article missing if your assertion is true?
- syops 6y ago
  My statement was, with few exceptions.... https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/why-students-foot-the-bill-for-college-sports-and-how-some-are-fighting-back/2015/11/30/7ca47476-8d3e-11e5-ae1f-af46b7df8483_story.html?itid=sf_ https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/why-students-foot-the-...
briandear 6y ago
Texas A&M has over $220 million a year in revenue. Highly profitable.
- syops 6y ago
  Yes. Hence the with few exceptions part of my comment. Also profit is revenue - expenses. A $220 million revenue doesn’t say anything about it’s profitability. https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/why-students-foot-the-bill-for-college-sports-and-how-some-are-fighting-back/2015/11/30/7ca47476-8d3e-11e5-ae1f-af46b7df8483_story.html?itid=sf_ https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/why-students-foot-the-...
  - snapetom 6y ago
    Evert P5 school is very profitable with their TV deals. Lesser conferences should also fair very well with TV deals. In terms of sheer numbers of schools, I guess your definition of "few exceptions" hold true. Should the majority of commuter schools, like say California State University, Sacramento, subsidize heavily in athletics? Of course not. However, your UCLA's, Michigans, and Texas A&Ms make insane amount of money, and often give money back to their university.
    - syops 6y ago
      Those D1 schools generate insane amounts of revenue from college and that revenue, in general, goes back to the athletic programs. The university as a whole does use money from those programs to fund education. Those programs don’t pay for their stadiums. They are subsidized by student fees. And those programs that do generate great revenue (but usually not great profit) are still a minority even amongst only D1 schools.
      - snapetom 6y ago
        You don’t even check your own math when you make that claim about student fees and stadiums. Stadiums costs nearly a billion to even renovate these days. Assuming a athletic fee of $2k per year at even the largest universities of 40k students. $80 million is a tiny drop in the bucket for a billion. Since you refuse to even do a small amount of research into this, stadiums and capital expenditures are vastly funded by alumni donations. Unofficially that is the biggest metric for athletic director success.
snapetom 6y ago
The definition and notions of "profitable" in college athletics is intentionally elusive and varies wildly. Both sides abuse this obfuscation to their advantage, and the articles you link to, besides being archaic, are some of the worst abuses I've seen on this topic. Each state, university, have different requirements on what is reported as subsidies. For example, discounting an out of state athlete's tuition may or may not be a subsidy. In some schools, all of the apparel sold with a school logo is athletics money, while in others, a percentage. And of course, private universities like Stanford, Northwestern, and the Ivys report very little. The articles also strawman the entire argument by using student fees to fund athletics. True, some schools abuse the hell out of them. Some Division III schools have ungodly amounts of athletic fees, and the students will never see their return. However, success in athletics, and football in particular, add to the brand of the school. Anti-athletics faculty love to huff and puff about how this isn't true, but common sense and studies in business schools routinely dispute this. Boston College reported a 3x increase in enrollment the year after Doug Flutie threw his touchdown. University of Alabama's enrollment has gone way up while the acceptance rate has gone way down in Nick Saban's tenure. Even if you never attend a game of any sort in school, you will gain in the perceived value of your degree. > I haven't looked into it but I doubt any football program paid for the stadium they use This tells me all I need to know about your bias on this.
- syops 6y ago
  How does that last quote of mine show my bias? I’ve cited in other posts numerous articles talking about the lack of profitability of most college athletics. I then stated an opinion of mine and indicated that it was merely an opinion. It’s my perception that athletic programs don’t pay for the stadiums they use. Those stadiums use taxpayer money. I know this to true at FSU and at the University of Minnesota. I’m not an expert on this topic and I gave an opinion on an aspect of this issue that I admittedly didn’t have lots of information. Do you not have opinions, impressions, thought, ideas about things you haven’t studied? Of course you do. In my case I was intellectually honest enough to let the reader distinguish between those thoughts of mine I had ready evidence for and those that I don’t. As to your third paragraph please keep in mind my usage of with rare exceptions. Of course you can cite counter examples to the general trend of college football being a drain on resources. Also note that I’ve cited evidence to back up my beliefs and you have not. You’ve even made a reference to common sense. There are far too many examples of where intuition and common sense are wrong for this to be a legitimate basis for a strong belief.
anm89 6y ago
You might want to look into it.
- syops 6y ago
  I did and couldn’t find any information. I do know at lest 2 major D1 programs have had their stadiums built with taxpayer money and the accounting of those programs’ profitability does not take into account the building of their stadiums. Have you looked into the issue? Do you know of any studies that show college sports programs paying for their stadiums?
cortesoft 6y ago
I didn’t say the schools were profiting (although some are). The NCAA itself has built up $700 million in assets. Broadcasters make a ton of money off of college sports. Coaches make a ton of money. There are a lot of people who make a lot of money off of college sports. None of them are players.

Alex3917 6y ago

> He's had to walk with a cane, or a walker on a bad day, since his 30s. If instead of destroying his body playing sports, someone had come and broken his legs with a crowbar, would he be better off? Don't get me wrong, I hate the NCAA, but there's a good reason why amateur sports exist.

totalZero 6y ago
Presumably there could be a compensatory and punitive windfall from a lawsuit against the crowbar assailant. So even your somewhat colorful example works against the point you're trying to make.
- Alex3917 6y ago
  I guess. As a former college athlete though, I do feel like there's something nice about being able to play soccer or whatever without being surrounded by other people who have a financial incentive to murder me.
  - potiuper 6y ago
    What makes you so sure there is no money riding on college sport outcomes?