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I feel the need to repost this link: https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-bi

I feel the need to repost this link: https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...

tyingq 6y ago
I'm somewhat curious at what pace WASM will gain "market share" while it's only practical to target it with C, C++, Rust, etc. Supposedly, there are plans to expand it to where it looks more like a virtual machine and less like ASM. Adding things like garbage collection, direct DOM manipulation, polymorphic inline cache, etc. Things that would make it possible to run a decent scripting language without pulling in some huge runtime. Or forgetting the scripting languages, just the direct DOM access might make it less tedious to use with compiled languages. It's sort of a second run at getting "applets" right, but in a cross-language way.
- jedimastert 6y ago
  it seems more like it's it's trying to be LLVM but for the web?
- cwalv 6y ago
  Graalvm native image has the ability to target llvm with a goal of making it easier "to target a new architecture without having to implement a complete new backend for Native Image." https://www.graalvm.org/reference-manual/native-image/LLVMBackend/ https://www.graalvm.org/reference-manual/native-image/LLVMBa...
- nicoburns 6y ago
  > while it's only practical to target it with C, C++, Rust, etc. You might not want to bundle Rust in with C and C++ in this context. Rust is pretty accessible to developers coming from scripting languages (JavaScript, Python, etc). Direct DOM manipulation (and the ability to send reference types across the JS-wasm boundary) is a pretty big deal though I think. Currently it doesn't make an awful lot of sense to build code that interacts with the DOM in WASM (although in Rust there are automatically generated bindings that go through a JavaScript shim).
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    > Rust is pretty accessible to developers coming from scripting languages (JavaScript, Python, etc). Not in a way that is unique to Rust…
- enos_feedler 6y ago
  I think WASM success won't be measured by market share gain on the web, but by number of new non-browser things that are programmed with WASM.
  - zlsa 6y ago
    Agreed. An interesting example is the new Microsoft Flight Simulator, which uses WASM[0] as a sandboxed language to create airplane gauges and custom flight models (HN discussion[1]). [0]: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/getting-started-with-wasm/343390 https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/getting-started-with-wa... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24281400 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24281400
    - enos_feedler 6y ago
      Very Cool!
      - Stevvo 6y ago
        In that specific situation I find it very uncool. It's targeted only by C++, a language that is far too complex to have any business being used as a scripting language to make needles move on a virtual altimeter. You get all of the drawbacks with none of the benefits of a C++.
        enos_feedler 6y ago
        I don’t find it uncool at all. Well we have to start somewhere. Don’t you think this usage of WebAssembly is at least providing some feedback into it’s ecosystem to make improvements for next time? Id rather have developers choosing webassembly even if the implementation doesnt meet our expectations yet
  - dmt0 6y ago
    EOS blockchain contracts are compiled to WASM.
- nightowl_games 6y ago
  > Adding things like garbage collection, direct DOM manipulation, polymorphic inline cache, etc. Things that would make it possible to run a decent scripting language without pulling in some huge runtime. Doesnt this just imply building a 'huge runtime' into the language?
  - zozbot234 6y ago
    Not necessarily. GC can be implemented in a way that's fairly compatible with low-level programming, by leveraging support for multiple address spaces and/or memory segmentation. And WASM needs that kind of support anyway for its planned module-based security.
  - ghayes 6y ago
    FWIW, AssemblyScript[0] adds its own garbage collection runtime into Wasm. The team had a good post recently on the performance implications[1] [0] https://www.assemblyscript.org/ https://www.assemblyscript.org/ [1] https://surma.dev/things/js-to-asc/index.html https://surma.dev/things/js-to-asc/index.html
  - tyingq 6y ago
    Not sure I understand. If parts of the runtime are already in the browser, then there's less to download.
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  > Things that would make it possible to run a decent scripting language without pulling in some huge runtime. Seems to me the web already has an answer for that: transpile to JavaScript, and leverage the existing high-performance JavaScript engines. Dart does this, for instance.

I feel the need to repost this link: https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death-of-javascript https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/the-birth-and-death...

tyingq 6y ago

I'm somewhat curious at what pace WASM will gain "market share" while it's only practical to target it with C, C++, Rust, etc. Supposedly, there are plans to expand it to where it looks more like a virtual machine and less like ASM. Adding things like garbage collection, direct DOM manipulation, polymorphic inline cache, etc. Things that would make it possible to run a decent scripting language without pulling in some huge runtime. Or forgetting the scripting languages, just the direct DOM access might make it less tedious to use with compiled languages. It's sort of a second run at getting "applets" right, but in a cross-language way.

jedimastert 6y ago
it seems more like it's it's trying to be LLVM but for the web?
cwalv 6y ago
Graalvm native image has the ability to target llvm with a goal of making it easier "to target a new architecture without having to implement a complete new backend for Native Image." https://www.graalvm.org/reference-manual/native-image/LLVMBackend/ https://www.graalvm.org/reference-manual/native-image/LLVMBa...
nicoburns 6y ago
> while it's only practical to target it with C, C++, Rust, etc. You might not want to bundle Rust in with C and C++ in this context. Rust is pretty accessible to developers coming from scripting languages (JavaScript, Python, etc). Direct DOM manipulation (and the ability to send reference types across the JS-wasm boundary) is a pretty big deal though I think. Currently it doesn't make an awful lot of sense to build code that interacts with the DOM in WASM (although in Rust there are automatically generated bindings that go through a JavaScript shim).
- saagarjha 6y ago
  > Rust is pretty accessible to developers coming from scripting languages (JavaScript, Python, etc). Not in a way that is unique to Rust…
enos_feedler 6y ago
I think WASM success won't be measured by market share gain on the web, but by number of new non-browser things that are programmed with WASM.
- zlsa 6y ago
  Agreed. An interesting example is the new Microsoft Flight Simulator, which uses WASM[0] as a sandboxed language to create airplane gauges and custom flight models (HN discussion[1]). [0]: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/getting-started-with-wasm/343390 https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/getting-started-with-wa... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24281400 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24281400
  - enos_feedler 6y ago
    Very Cool!
    - Stevvo 6y ago
      In that specific situation I find it very uncool. It's targeted only by C++, a language that is far too complex to have any business being used as a scripting language to make needles move on a virtual altimeter. You get all of the drawbacks with none of the benefits of a C++.
      - enos_feedler 6y ago
        I don’t find it uncool at all. Well we have to start somewhere. Don’t you think this usage of WebAssembly is at least providing some feedback into it’s ecosystem to make improvements for next time? Id rather have developers choosing webassembly even if the implementation doesnt meet our expectations yet
- dmt0 6y ago
  EOS blockchain contracts are compiled to WASM.
nightowl_games 6y ago
> Adding things like garbage collection, direct DOM manipulation, polymorphic inline cache, etc. Things that would make it possible to run a decent scripting language without pulling in some huge runtime. Doesnt this just imply building a 'huge runtime' into the language?
- zozbot234 6y ago
  Not necessarily. GC can be implemented in a way that's fairly compatible with low-level programming, by leveraging support for multiple address spaces and/or memory segmentation. And WASM needs that kind of support anyway for its planned module-based security.
- ghayes 6y ago
  FWIW, AssemblyScript[0] adds its own garbage collection runtime into Wasm. The team had a good post recently on the performance implications[1] [0] https://www.assemblyscript.org/ https://www.assemblyscript.org/ [1] https://surma.dev/things/js-to-asc/index.html https://surma.dev/things/js-to-asc/index.html
- tyingq 6y ago
  Not sure I understand. If parts of the runtime are already in the browser, then there's less to download.
MaxBarraclough 6y ago
> Things that would make it possible to run a decent scripting language without pulling in some huge runtime. Seems to me the web already has an answer for that: transpile to JavaScript, and leverage the existing high-performance JavaScript engines. Dart does this, for instance.